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Old July 16 2009, 06:56 PM   #76
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
The former could be a case of temporary impulse operations, mistaken by our heroes for permanent warp incapability. The latter issue I'm not familiar with - the refit ship didn't seem to do any warping or other FTL travel without warp engines in the movie.
It could be, but there is no reason to believe so.
We could speculate endlessly but I will stop short of doing so if there isn't sufficient cause to believe the case maybe true or there is an unresolvable conflict.

That still leaves just two examples of "impulse goes interstellar" in all of Star Trek - and "impulse doesn't allow interstellar" is a central plot point in several episodes, such as "Ensign Ro". Going against these plot points on ambiguous evidence doesn't strike me as a good idea
Look at it precisely..
TOS regarded the Bird of Prey's journey as a one way mission. (fuel concerns)
The Motion Picture noted that the warp engines would still be necessary.
Likely this means that the impulse engines would not be efficient in speed or Time warp would be too great to proceed under impulse. In otherwords draw backs.

That some of the ships in the fleet are of warp-capable type? Yes - several of the Bajoran/Cardassian triangle designs have been evidenced at warp in other episodes. That some may be temporarily warp-incapable? Yes, if we accept that they are normally warp-capable, and are now being referred to as "impulse ships".
Well we saw the same hulls. The vessels could have easily been sold stripped of vauable technology or salvaged and modified to Bajoran specs.
So there is no contradiction.

[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I understand you here. If the ships are capable of impulse and no better during the episode, no matter what the reason, then they should count as "impulse ships" all right - even if the designs as such have warp drives.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

Its the same point as before. Without outstanding contradiction how can I really consider that the information the Council gives us is wrong? Less the vessel as identified as the same ship by name or registry we would have to assume the design was retrograde or it's warp capable counterpart is a refit, but it doesn't tell us these ships absolutely must be warp driven.

Now it could be that those ships you saw are as you say warp capable and the Impulse ships were the gliders and the others were merely other species or governments supporting the bajorans. Allies if you will.
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Old July 16 2009, 07:19 PM   #77
Timo
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Look at it precisely..
TOS regarded the Bird of Prey's journey as a one way mission. (fuel concerns)
Huh? It was explicit that the Romulan ship intended to return - and it was only stopped from doing so because Kirk harassed it into a mode of operation that caused a fuel concern (the same way WWII submarines would face hardships if destroyers forced them to stay underwater). There was no suggestion of a suicide nature to the mission at any point.

The Motion Picture noted that the warp engines would still be necessary. Likely this means that the impulse engines would not be efficient in speed or Time warp would be too great to proceed under impulse. In otherwords draw backs.
You lost me here... What time warp in TMP? Or, if we're talking about The Voyage Home and its time warp, how would "impulse" or "warp" feature in that movie?

Well we saw the same hulls. The vessels could have easily been sold stripped of valuable technology or salvaged and modified to Bajoran specs.
Quite possibly. Yet Bajor has always also operated explicitly interstellar versions of those vessels (seen early on already, in episodes like "Past Prologue" or "A Man Alone"), so if they were "impulse ships" now, they were atypical examples of Bajoran ships of that external design.

Less the vessel as identified as the same ship by name or registry we would have to assume the design was retrograde or it's warp capable counterpart is a refit, but it doesn't tell us these ships absolutely must be warp driven.
Yet we know for sure that they are atypical examples of their design, since (apart from "Ensign Ro" as regards one of the designs) all other appearances of ships that looked like that either made mention of interstellar flight, or then didn't make any mention of lack of FTL capacities.

And even in "Ensign Ro", the Cardassians firmly believed that the Bajora vessel was warp-capable - their plan of framing the terrorist Orta hinged on that assumption. That they could be mistaken begs for some explanation. And the easiest one is that those triangle ships tend to be interstellar, except when they are damaged or stripped down.

Now it could be that those ships you saw are as you say warp capable and the Impulse ships were the gliders and the others were merely other species or governments supporting the bajorans. Allies if you will.
Yeah, that's always a possibility. The ronly eason I oppose this interpretation is that the winged ships have demonstrated interstellar flight on a couple of occasions, even though it's a major plot point elsewhere that impulse doesn't allow for interstellar travel.

Although it might also be that the winged ships come in two variants, warp and impulse. A poor world like Bajor might not be able to afford warp engines on all of its winged interceptors, even if the design was originally intended to have such engines. A slight modification of the idea that "being an impulse ship" would equate "having malfunctioning warp engines"...

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Old July 16 2009, 11:55 PM   #78
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
If that were true we see an obvious retro-positioned exhaust port.
That's weird, because the image you posted doesn't show a retro-port, it shows THRUST REVERSERS. The impulse engines can accomplish the exact same job with a simple force field.

The high energy IONs from a Fusion Reaction would be brilliant.
Not in the absence of an atmosphere, they wouldn't. Actually, they'd only be visible directly in front of the exhaust aperture where collisions between ions are still frequent (which is exactly what we do so when the impulse engines are active).

I didn't say it canceled out motion completely.
Not motion, INERTIA. Meaning the TENDENCY of a body at rest to remain at rest or in motion.

If the IDF actually is dampening anything then it's equated to a force acting on a body.
Correct. It's a force field acting on every part of the ship's innards (just like artificial gravity). The effect is that every part of the ship moves uniformly with every other part of the ship, so the feeling of acceleration is dampened.

I imagine that means we're dealing with unified field theory.
No. It means inertial dampeners and/or stabilizers distribute the ship's inertia evenly so the force of the thrusters is applied to the spaceframe, the crew, the consoles, the carpets, the dinner plates and your coffee cup and not just to the spaceframe itself. The ship IS alot harder to move when the inertial dampeners are on, which is why all Starfleet vessels have ridiculously powerful thrusters.

And just how would a "static" field be defined?
A subspace field that doesn't move you anywhere.

Really? Even warp drive has a velocity threshold.
Warp drive has a WARP FIELD threshhold neccesary for penetration of the speed of light, equal to exactly One Cochrane. A warp field below that threshhold is still a warp field.

According to Einstien: E=mc^2 Mass is directly associated with velocity exponentially.
Incorrect; E= energy where M=mass and C is the speed of light. The velocity of an object has nothing to do with it.

As you approach the speed of light the greater your mass
That's called "relativistic mass." You'll find it in a handful of very old physics books, but not new ones, because the concept is misleading (IOW, mass doesn't increase with velocity, only potential energy).

The Phoenix was a smaller ship, lesser mass, a velocity threshold at the equivalent power output for warp one of a bigger ship would quickly move a smaller ship pass c.
But phoenix continued to accelerate throughout the runup to warp drive. Just as Enterpirse did in TMP, as Sulu calls out "warp point seven... point eight... point nine..." and suddenly the ship breaks the light barrier. Presumably the impulse drive in the TMP era was a hybrid system with the warp nacelles providing a static subspace field, but accelerating to WARP required ramping up the intensity of that field and then distorting it to a degree sufficient to pass the light barrier. Sort of like an SR-71 transitioning to ramjet mode.


Driver coils is mentioned on screen on multiple occasions as a component of the impulse engines. Defiant, Delta Flyer and Voyager are references.
Reference to warp coils, yes. But not "subspace driver coils."
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Old July 17 2009, 01:59 PM   #79
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
Huh? It was explicit that the Romulan ship intended to return - and it was only stopped from doing so because Kirk harassed it into a mode of operation that caused a fuel concern (the same way WWII submarines would face hardships if destroyers forced them to stay underwater). There was no suggestion of a suicide nature to the mission at any point.
Ah, I thought so but my memory of the episode is incomplete. I had the recollection of Spock relating the limitations of the Romulan bird of prey with it had come. It's likely it was the damage I heard in reference. I"ll review.

You lost me here... What time warp in TMP? Or, if we're talking about The Voyage Home and its time warp, how would "impulse" or "warp" feature in that movie?
Warp speed is a Time Warp.
If Impulse does not over come the problem of relativistic speeds it would be yet another reason why impulse is not a common use for interstellar power, including speed and possibly fuel consumption.



Quite possibly. Yet Bajor has always also operated explicitly interstellar versions of those vessels (seen early on already, in episodes like "Past Prologue" or "A Man Alone"), so if they were "impulse ships" now, they were atypical examples of Bajoran ships of that external design.
Acknowledged and confirmed.

Now it could be that those ships you saw are as you say warp capable and the Impulse ships were the gliders and the others were merely other species or governments supporting the bajorans. Allies if you will.
Yeah, that's always a possibility. The ronly eason I oppose this interpretation is that the winged ships have demonstrated interstellar flight on a couple of occasions, even though it's a major plot point elsewhere that impulse doesn't allow for interstellar travel.
Although it might also be that the winged ships come in two variants, warp and impulse. A poor world like Bajor might not be able to afford warp engines on all of its winged interceptors, even if the design was originally intended to have such engines. A slight modification of the idea that "being an impulse ship" would equate "having malfunctioning warp engines"...

Timo Saloniemi
I must bow to your superior knowledge in this capacity.
I don't know how much of a plot point impulse being strictly interplanetary has occured in Trek. Many that I reall only emphasis how slow it is compared to warp. I remember one DS9 incident after bombing the ketracel white facility and incuring damage Bashir merely tells us how long it would take to get to the nearest Federation outpost. It was on the order of years.

Yet I get the impression that impulse is extremely limited in the 24th century. I think it's done for plot points. I must not in the future they develop hyper-impulse power.

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
That's weird, because the image you posted doesn't show a retro-port, it shows THRUST REVERSERS. The impulse engines can accomplish the exact same job with a simple force field.
I didn't say it was retro-port. The image shows retro positioned blast shields to direct the thrust forward. A Starhip is an internally composed vessel. There would have to be a retro port, in other words a port facing forwards to allow the highly charged plasma to escape.


Not in the absence of an atmosphere, they wouldn't. Actually, they'd only be visible directly in front of the exhaust aperture where collisions between ions are still frequent (which is exactly what we do so when the impulse engines are active).
It doesn't matter. The impulse engine is fussion reactor. Ions aren't the sole emitter of that reaction. We're talking of channeling concentrated beams of this energy for thrust. It would still be visible even if it attenuated quickly after departing the manifold. Even the Shuttle's main engine exhaust is still highly visible outside the atmosphere and it's relatively unfocused and using far less energy.


Not motion, INERTIA. Meaning the TENDENCY of a body at rest to remain at rest or in motion.
In this case of ship remaining in motion in the presence of an IDF field there is no difference. The IDF would cancel out the motion of the ship. It would be an outside force acting upon the ships inertia.


Correct. It's a force field acting on every part of the ship's innards (just like artificial gravity). The effect is that every part of the ship moves uniformly with every other part of the ship, so the feeling of acceleration is dampened.
I have not found that artifical gravity works this way on ships.
They are capable of shutting down each decks lifesupport and gravity.

I still don't know how this would be done realisticly. Ultimately you have to push on the space and not the ship to remove the sensation of acceleration. That's what warp does, but IDF plays more with disturbances of the ship itself so it's curious how one would attempt to do so unless on used conventional design incorporated in buildings today. How a field would do this really beyond me.


No. It means inertial dampeners and/or stabilizers distribute the ship's inertia evenly so the force of the thrusters is applied to the spaceframe, the crew, the consoles, the carpets, the dinner plates and your coffee cup and not just to the spaceframe itself. The ship IS alot harder to move when the inertial dampeners are on, which is why all Starfleet vessels have ridiculously powerful thrusters.
I do not believe that is even the purpose of IDF.
the ship utilizes mass reducers and spatial fields to move.
I'd have to review the TNG manual to get a better understanding of what they intended the devices for. In this capacity they seem redundant.


A subspace field that doesn't move you anywhere.
What's the difference between that and a noraml subspace field like the one used on DS9? That seems to be a redundancy in terms.


Warp drive has a WARP FIELD threshhold neccesary for penetration of the speed of light, equal to exactly One Cochrane.
Necessary...
as in the threshold is limited to c specificly and up?

Incorrect; E= energy where M=mass and C is the speed of light. The velocity of an object has nothing to do with it.
E=MC^2 describes equality of mass to energy. In terms of velocity it would tell us how much additional energy an object in motion has. If you push and object it gains momentum and energy. But if the object is already travelling near the speed of light, it can't move much faster, no matter how much energy it absorbs. Its momentum and energy continue to increase, but its speed approaches a constant value—the speed of light. This means that in relativity the momentum of an object cannot be a constant times the velocity.


That's called "relativistic mass." You'll find it in a handful of very old physics books, but not new ones, because the concept is misleading (IOW, mass doesn't increase with velocity, only potential energy).
I cannot relate.
It is how I've always known it. But I acknowledge the information.

The Phoenix was a smaller ship, lesser mass, a velocity threshold at the equivalent power output for warp one of a bigger ship would quickly move a smaller ship pass c.
But phoenix continued to accelerate throughout the runup to warp drive. Just as Enterpirse did in TMP, as Sulu calls out "warp point seven... point eight... point nine..." and suddenly the ship breaks the light barrier. Presumably the impulse drive in the TMP era was a hybrid system with the warp nacelles providing a static subspace field, but accelerating to WARP required ramping up the intensity of that field and then distorting it to a degree sufficient to pass the light barrier. Sort of like an SR-71 transitioning to ramjet mode.
Enterprise never crossed that barrier on the impulse engines and if Full impulse really is .25 of light then the raming up is understandable. The Pheonix doesn't make any sense anyway. It's the warp ship using a warp core and antimatter, all of which would be impossible to install for the level of technology even superior to present day tech and then advanced 60 years, to install on a TITAN Missle. The proportions would end up being far too similar to an over grown photon torpedo. It was 2063 not 2163.

The first test of a warp drive should have occured with a Fusion reactor with an impulse engine being the first engine developed because obviously they didn't have the shield technology to convert the lost energy of the reaction from neutrinos to useable energy.

First contact proposed that late in the 21st century mankind had all the basic parts of the 24th century space travel, shields, matter antimatter reactors developed enough to augment a TITAN missle with.

It was truely a contemptable film for more than just that reason but this stands out for me.


Driver coils is mentioned on screen on multiple occasions as a component of the impulse engines. Defiant, Delta Flyer and Voyager are references.
Reference to warp coils, yes. But not "subspace driver coils."[/QUOTE]
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Old July 17 2009, 10:48 PM   #80
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
I didn't say it was retro-port. The image shows retro positioned blast shields to direct the thrust forward. A Starhip is an internally composed vessel. There would have to be a retro port...
OR A FORCEFIELD over the impulse engines acting as a blast shield in exactly the manner shown in your picture, as I have said at least three times. No additional hardware is required.

It doesn't matter. The impulse engine is fussion reactor. Ions aren't the sole emitter of that reaction.
The sole exhaust product of a fusion reaction is highly energetic plasma. Plasma is composed of ions. Therefore, the only thing you would see in the impulse exhaust is ions bumping into each other, and the only time you'll see that is JUST as they are leaving the exhaust vents.

Even the Shuttle's main engine exhaust is still highly visible outside the atmosphere
The shuttle's main engine seldom operates outside the atmosphere; the only time it does, it looks like an impulse engine, with the "glow" confined to the exhaust nozzle and nowhere else.

Also, the shuttle's engines doesn't emit "Beams of energy." It emits superheated water vapor.

In this case of ship remaining in motion in the presence of an IDF field there is no difference. The IDF would cancel out the motion of the ship.
No, because IDFs don't cancel motion, they cancel INERTIA. And not of the whole ship, just of separate components not attached to the ship.


I still don't know how this would be done realisticly. Ultimately you have to push on the space and not the ship to remove the sensation of acceleration.
IDF fields push on objects inside the ship to provide uniform acceleration throughout. Sort of like the way a maglev system can provide uniform acceleration for all ten cars in a train without slamming them into each other.

I do not believe that is even the purpose of IDF.
Then you believe incorrectly.

the ship utilizes mass reducers and spatial fields to move.
Neither of which are classified under "IDF", as per the TNG manual.

What's the difference between that and a noraml subspace field like the one used on DS9?
None whatsoever. A "static" subspace field is what most of us would consider "normal" where a "warp field" is... well, a warped subspace field.

Sort of like the difference between "static electricity" and "alternating current electricity." Different terms used to describe exactly what concept you're referring to.

Necessary...
as in the threshold is limited to c specificly and up?
As in "the threshhold" means "the amount of field distortion required to move a ship faster than the speed of light," which is defined (in the TNG manual) as exactly one cochrane. It's kind of arbitrary except that it uses the speed of light as a marker for "warp one" or, alternately, "warp speed." A ship with a low-power warp field will still move at warp below this threshhold, but it won't move at the speed of light.

E=MC^2 describes equality of mass to energy.
No, it describes the EQUIVALENCE of mass and energy. It does not tell you anything about the equivalence of VELOCITY and energy, which is defined by a very different formula.

Here's a rule of thumb: in most physics equations the velocity of a body is defined as a variable "V." E=mc^2 doesn't have V as a variable; c, the speed of light, is the velocity here, and is used as a constant and not a variable.

But phoenix continued to accelerate throughout the runup to warp drive. Just as Enterpirse did in TMP, as Sulu calls out "warp point seven... point eight... point nine..." and suddenly the ship breaks the light barrier. Presumably the impulse drive in the TMP era was a hybrid system with the warp nacelles providing a static subspace field, but accelerating to WARP required ramping up the intensity of that field and then distorting it to a degree sufficient to pass the light barrier. Sort of like an SR-71 transitioning to ramjet mode.
Enterprise never crossed that barrier on the impulse engines and if Full impulse really is .25 of light then the raming up is understandable.
But it's not. Strictly speaking, impulse power would be a level of engine output, not a measure of velocity; earlier, Kirk ordered "warp point five" on impulse engines, which is about half the speed of light. We don't even know what impulse power level Sulu used.

The Pheonix doesn't make any sense anyway. It's the warp ship using a warp core and antimatter
We don't know it was using antimatter. For all we know it was equipped with a converted NERVA reactor; I don't see a problem with a century-old thermonuclear rocket engine being used to power a brand new drive system.
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Old July 18 2009, 09:48 PM   #81
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
The Pheonix doesn't make any sense anyway. It's the warp ship using a warp core and antimatter
We don't know it was using antimatter. For all we know it was equipped with a converted NERVA reactor; I don't see a problem with a century-old thermonuclear rocket engine being used to power a brand new drive system.
By the way, guys... this thread has effectively become unreadable at this point. I skipped past the last few hundred lines and will only comment on the lowermost line here...

(and yes, I'm well aware that I can be fairly verbose as well, but at this point, it's exceeded even MY limits!)

The Pheonix makes PERFECT sense if you omit the phrase "warp drive" and simply substitute "faster than light" everywhere you see it.

The Pheonix would be a "subspace-assisted impulse" ship, exactly as I've described it so many times.

It has a pair of nacelles which house subspace field generators. It has a FUSION reactor, which is used to produce thrust and to produce usable energy for the subspace field generators.

The ship is powered, under normal duty, by the basic fusion-reactor drive system, which provides thrust ("impulse") to the ship.

To go faster-than-light, you divert power to the field generation hardware in the nacelles. These nacelles create a subspace field around the Pheonix. This field is a symmetrical, "non-warped" field. It provide absolutely no motive force on its own.

However... by creating this "subspace field" around the Pheonix (essentially a "pocket universe" of space/time which is slightly dimensionally-offset from "real space/time") you change the rules.

Your ship still has the same amount of mass... but the amount of your mass-shadow in "real space/time" is reduced significantly... in other words, from your own perspective, you have full mass, but from the perspective of anyone in the "normal" universe, you weigh almost nothing.

Meanwhile... and this is another of those "perspective matters" issues... inside your bubble, the outside universe looks a lot smaller, and while the speed of light as you observe it within your bubble (say, from one end of the ship to the other end) seems the same, speed of light within the bubble and outside of the bubble are a lot different. Any motion "inside the bubble" seems, outside the bubble, to be tremendously faster.

The "local speed of light" within the bubble, when seen from outside of the bubble, is much, much faster.

So, when the Pheonix generated its subspace bubble, there was that moment of transition... the "shock" that they experienced... as they transitioned between "real space" and "sub-space."

It was still only moving because of the impulse system, but the presence of the subspace bubble allowed it to accelerate a lot faster, and move a lot faster, than it would have been able to in "real" space.

Not "warp drive." But "faster than light propulsion" nevertheless.
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Old July 18 2009, 11:52 PM   #82
Captain Robert April
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Maybe a better way to put it would be "not warp drive in the modern, conventional sense (i.e., a 22nd to 24th Century perspective), but an essential building block in the development of full-fledge warp drive a short time later."
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Old July 20 2009, 04:22 PM   #83
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
OR A FORCEFIELD over the impulse engines acting as a blast shield in exactly the manner shown in your picture, as I have said at least three times. No additional hardware is required.
IF the Impulse Engines are presumed to be a Form of electro-nuclear propulsion then there is a powerful exhaust stream. Now that Stream must be released from the vessel via an exhaust port. It can not be bottled. For the ship to move in the opposite direction by use of a mere forcefield there would have to be a forward facing exhaust port that releases that stream in space. The stream cannot be deflected back to the same exhaust port.

Since there is no forward location for the escape of reverse thrust we can easily conclude that a forcefield is not the method of reversal. It also leads us to conclude that Impulse engine is also not a form of electro-nuclear propulsion which the popular Trek Wiki, Memory ALPHA has not figured out.


The sole exhaust product of a fusion reaction is highly energetic plasma. Plasma is composed of ions. Therefore, the only thing you would see in the impulse exhaust is ions bumping into each other, and the only time you'll see that is JUST as they are leaving the exhaust vents.
Yes and we don't see that at all.
A burst of light is not at all similar to a release of Ions.
One is light the other is high-energy matter.


The shuttle's main engine seldom operates outside the atmosphere; the only time it does, it looks like an impulse engine, with the "glow" confined to the exhaust nozzle and nowhere else.
That's not true. Review the video from begniing to end please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DNlj...layer_embedded
Note:
The altitude for the technical definition for vaccuum is a 100 km or 62 miles
Note: the Altitude of MECO is 67 statute miles. By the time of MECO the shuttle has been well above what most people would consider the atmosphere on a curved trajectory into orbit for 2 to minutes maybe more.

Note:
At MECO-
-The external tank is leaking. (its not sealed like the SRB's)
-There is a visible flame around the shuttle's nose and a clear and distinct plume is at the rear of the shuttle.
-The shuttles engines are progressively throttled down by intvervals of 10% for MECO.
-The gas seen emitted from the rear of the shuttle is Hydrogen (a large majority) because the SSME do not react well to full shut off, nor does the hot metal nozzels react well to pure oxygen.

We are talking about Impulse engines, Fusion ejecta focused by an electro-magnetic field. It would produce a beam and it would be highly visible at the out put of several fusion reactors. This is from the information I've seen. I could show you snap shots of this if you like.
My point is the shuttle engines aren't even that focused, operating at far less power and defnitely in a vaccuum. It seems to me the IMF engine if not field propulsion and a form of Rocket Engine would create far more.



Also, the shuttle's engines doesn't emit "Beams of energy." It emits superheated water vapor.
I didn't mean to imply it did.


No, because IDFs don't cancel motion, they cancel INERTIA. And not of the whole ship, just of separate components not attached to the ship.
I think I understand.
Inertia is resistance to change in motion so a dampening field would lower it's resistance making it easier for objects to have a change in motion.

I don't know about the the sperate componets.

Then you believe incorrectly.
Maybe.
That's the purpose of this process of determination.



Neither of which are classified under "IDF", as per the TNG manual.
Which specificly says?


None whatsoever. A "static" subspace field is what most of us would consider "normal" where a "warp field" is... well, a warped subspace field.
static subspace field = normal space?
Why do you say this?


As in "the threshhold" means "the amount of field distortion required to move a ship faster than the speed of light," which is defined (in the TNG manual) as exactly one cochrane. It's kind of arbitrary except that it uses the speed of light as a marker for "warp one" or, alternately, "warp speed." A ship with a low-power warp field will still move at warp below this threshhold, but it won't move at the speed of light.
So mass isn't a factor for achieving light speed with a warp field?


No, it describes the EQUIVALENCE of mass and energy.
I'm saying the same thing. If that was horrible imprecise then the fault is obviously my own.

It does not tell you anything about the equivalence of VELOCITY and energy, which is defined by a very different formula.

Here's a rule of thumb: in most physics equations the velocity of a body is defined as a variable "V." E=mc^2 doesn't have V as a variable; c, the speed of light, is the velocity here, and is used as a constant and not a variable.
Yes, I know.
I'm refering to a concept that energy of all matter in the universe comes down to differences in relative motion, velocity, vibration, etc.

Strictly speaking, impulse power would be a level of engine output, not a measure of velocity; earlier, Kirk ordered "warp point five" on impulse engines, which is about half the speed of light. We don't even know what impulse power level Sulu used.
The engines were imbalanced. The Forumla was unknown.
That prevented them from being used at all. Or is this assuming to much.
Do you mean that the interchange between Kirk and Sulu is to vague to determine if the warp drive was being used or the impulse engines were being used?

We don't know it was using antimatter. For all we know it was equipped with a converted NERVA reactor; I don't see a problem with a century-old thermonuclear rocket engine being used to power a brand new drive system.
Isn't the Nerva just a rocket engine? In other words for the purpose of producing thrust? Not a power unit.

The Phoenix had a warp core and an intermix chamber. It had a set of heavy coils and command cabin on the nose. Now propperly...they didn't activate that "Core" untill main engine cut-off. However the Movie showed a TITAN II designating it a TITAN V (I believe). A TITAN IV has a set of boosters for lift assistance of a payload of 47,000 pounds.

These Rockets were designed to lift War Heads of some size. 47,000 lbs should be around 23 tons. I don't believe Phoenix was 23 tons I think it was about half the weight or more of the space shuttle around 50 to 55 tons.

That missle they showed in the movie couldn't have lifted the Phoenix.

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Old July 22 2009, 03:03 AM   #84
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
OR A FORCEFIELD over the impulse engines acting as a blast shield in exactly the manner shown in your picture, as I have said at least three times. No additional hardware is required.
IF the Impulse Engines are presumed to be a Form of electro-nuclear propulsion then there is a powerful exhaust stream. Now that Stream must be released from the vessel via an exhaust port...
Which is right there on the impulse engine. Now generate a V-shaped forcefield OVER that exhaust port--in the same way you posted in your airplane picture--to deflect the path of that stream forward, and what do you have?

<Drumroll>

REVERSE THRUST! YAY!

Yes and we don't see that at all.
A burst of light is not at all similar to a release of Ions.
First of all, yes we do; impulse engines GLOW. Second of all, that's exactly what a release of ions looks like, especially at high temperature.

That's not true. Review the video from begniing to end please.
It's the "end" that you need to watch, Saquist. During any launch sequence it takes a space shuttle several minutes to actually leave the atmosphere; even in the UPPER atmosphere, the glow from its main engines is only visible just inside the engine bell in a manner not at all unlike an impulse engine.

We are talking about Impulse engines, Fusion ejecta focused by an electro-magnetic field. It would produce a beam and it would be highly visible at the out put of several fusion reactors.
As I already told you, fusion ejecta is only visible when the ions are close enough to bounce off each other and re-radiate visible light as a result of the collision. Strictly speaking, that plasma isn't usually visible even inside a fusion reactor, let alone as a plume of energized particles fired into space. The plasma stream will be far too diffuse and moving much too fast for the effect you describe.

See, for an exhaust plume to be visible, it needs to do one of two things: it either absorbs and re-radiates light, or it scatters light from other sources. The exhaust from the SSME does not, because superheated steam doesn't radiate much light, nor is it dense enough to scatter much light, and is therefore largely invisible. Plasma exhaust from a fusion engine would be even less visible since the mass flow would be EXTREMELY low, and the only other light source--the impulse engine itself--isn't giving off enough light to irradiate the plasma OR enough for the diffuse exhaust to be scattered by it.

And this all ignores the fact that every space craft since the original Galactica has used either LEDs or incandescent bulbs to represent active engines, even craft that explicitly used rocket-based propulsion systems. It's a VFX convention that can only be rationalized by the exhaust not being thick enough or energetic enough to leave a visible plume.

My point is the shuttle engines aren't even that focused, operating at far less power and defnitely in a vaccuum.
Which is why they are SLIGHTLY more visible than impulse engines. The more powerful the engine, the less visible its exhaust products will be.

Inertia is resistance to change in motion so a dampening field would lower it's resistance making it easier for objects to have a change in motion.

I don't know about the the sperate componets.
"Seperate components" means "people, furniture, coffee cups," things that are not directly attached to the IDF field. Strictly speaking, a solid object only behaves like a solid object because its molecules are held together by electromagnetic fields; the IDF allows things that would otherwise not behave like a "part of the ship" to do so using a different type of force field.

Which specificly says?
That the purpose of IDF fields is to cancel out the sensation of acceleration for objects and people inside the ship.

static subspace field = normal space?
No, it equals "normal subspace field."


So mass isn't a factor for achieving light speed with a warp field?
No. Only field output.

Yes, I know.
I'm refering to a concept that energy of all matter in the universe comes down to differences in relative motion, velocity, vibration, etc.
It doesn't, though. Matter and energy are equivalent because a certain amount of matter can be CONVERTED into a certain amount of energy and (theoretically) vice versa. That doesn't mean matter and energy are the SAME THING in slightly different states, it means they can be exchanged one for another in a reversible process.

Strictly speaking, impulse power would be a level of engine output, not a measure of velocity; earlier, Kirk ordered "warp point five" on impulse engines, which is about half the speed of light. We don't even know what impulse power level Sulu used.
The engines were imbalanced. The Forumla was unknown.[/quote]
I'm talking about impulse power, not warp drive. The warp engines had not even been used yet.

Do you mean that the interchange between Kirk and Sulu is to vague to determine if the warp drive was being used or the impulse engines were being used?
No.

Kirk's exact words were:

"Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead warp point five." It's perfectly clear: Sulu used the impulse engines to achieve that velocity, but we do not know what impulse setting (half/full/one quarter) he used. There are also cues from the Captain's Log 1.8 hours later that the Enterprise was indeed moving at about half the speed of light.

Isn't the Nerva just a rocket engine? In other words for the purpose of producing thrust? Not a power unit.
Well, NERVA is a nuclear reactor that powers a rocket engine. You can do anything you want with the plasma that comes out of the nozzle, up to and including diverting it into a pair of warp nacelles.

The Phoenix had a warp core and an intermix chamber.
We don't know that either. We know it had a warp core, but we don't know what it was powered by. Could be fusion, fission, could be a pair of hamsters on a wheel, could be charcoal...
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Old July 22 2009, 08:04 PM   #85
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post

Which is right there on the impulse engine. Now generate a V-shaped forcefield OVER that exhaust port--in the same way you posted in your airplane picture--to deflect the path of that stream forward, and what do you have?

That's completely speculative and against the infromation we've seen.
Such a disturbance would be very visible. But at least now I know what you're talking about.


First of all, yes we do; impulse engines GLOW. Second of all, that's exactly what a release of ions looks like, especially at high temperature.
You say that as thought as though I implied impulse engines don't glow.
Not only do impulse engines glow the glow of that out put almost never changes due to thrust. Full impulse is the same lumious as 1/4 impulse.

-As far as High Temperature Ions: Please use an illistration to make you point.


It's the "end" that you need to watch, Saquist. During any launch sequence it takes a space shuttle several minutes to actually leave the atmosphere; even in the UPPER atmosphere, the glow from its main engines is only visible just inside the engine bell in a manner not at all unlike an impulse engine.
Actually it's nothing like the impulse engine.
The orbiter's main engine shines brightly. The impulse engine doesn't shine at all. It glows. The original Enterprise's impulse engines didn't shine and none after. Infact Gene Roddenberry specificly directed Mat Jefferies NOT to design anything like a rocket engine in the design of the enterprise. Memory Alpha calls impulse an advanced fusion rocket.

Star Trek is divided on the ION engine issue.
According to TOS ION engines are advanced and beyond Federation technology. In Voyager it was a prewarp technology.

Impulse doesn't have anything in common with it and has never be liken to ION tech.


As I already told you, fusion ejecta is only visible when the ions are close enough to bounce off each other and re-radiate visible light as a result of the collision. Strictly speaking, that plasma isn't usually visible even inside a fusion reactor, let alone as a plume of energized particles fired into space. The plasma stream will be far too diffuse and moving much too fast for the effect you describe.


This may merely be a case of artist rendition but this is a 3D image for simulation. It may be there to indicate direction of travel for all I know but it seems to indicate this probes tightly focused stream would be visible. What your thinking on this?

See, for an exhaust plume to be visible, it needs to do one of two things: it either absorbs and re-radiates light, or it scatters light from other sources. The exhaust from the SSME does not, because superheated steam doesn't radiate much light, nor is it dense enough to scatter much light, and is therefore largely invisible. Plasma exhaust from a fusion engine would be even less visible since the mass flow would be EXTREMELY low, and the only other light source--the impulse engine itself--isn't giving off enough light to irradiate the plasma OR enough for the diffuse exhaust to be scattered by it.
I think the focus would make it dense enough to be visible.
I don't have the specs on the vehicle but untill I see otherwise I can no longer make the call. you make a good argument that I simply do not have sufficient knowledge to rebutt.




That the purpose of IDF fields is to cancel out the sensation of acceleration for objects and people inside the ship.
While in normal space perhaps but at warp IDF is unnecessary.
Not if a warpfield is what it seems to be.


No. Only field output.
I would have to disagree.
That maybe because of what I think a warp field does.


It doesn't, though. Matter and energy are equivalent because a certain amount of matter can be CONVERTED into a certain amount of energy and (theoretically) vice versa. That doesn't mean matter and energy are the SAME THING in slightly different states, it means they can be exchanged one for another in a reversible process.
I see. So why aren't they the same if you may convert one for another.
(no analogies please)


I'm talking about impulse power, not warp drive. The warp engines had not even been used yet.
Then we're not talking about the same point in the movie.

No.

Kirk's exact words were:

"Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead warp point five." It's perfectly clear: Sulu used the impulse engines to achieve that velocity, but we do not know what impulse setting (half/full/one quarter) he used. There are also cues from the Captain's Log 1.8 hours later that the Enterprise was indeed moving at about half the speed of light.
Yeah, I wasn't speaking of this at all. My attention was on the scenes after the imbalance.



We don't know that either. We know it had a warp core, but we don't know what it was powered by. Could be fusion, fission, could be a pair of hamsters on a wheel, could be charcoal...[/QUOTE]

Fusion doesn't require an intermix chamber. That's a reaction chamber/vessel. Niether does fission. No mixing is required in these reactors. The only thing that needs an intermix chamber is an anti-matter matter reaction system. Anything else is random speculation against the canon...

Lets assume so though.
Why call it a "Warp Core" if no one has ever gone to warp before?
Was he attempting to be prophetic? Describing what the power unit will help him accomplish instead of what it actually was?

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Old July 22 2009, 08:47 PM   #86
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

"Against the canon?"

Holy fucking eh man, what is this Church Of Technobabble?! Can't you just make something up using your imagination?!
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Old July 22 2009, 08:51 PM   #87
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

The idea of the impulse engines as glorified rockets was barely plausible during TOS; by the time of TNG, it was clear that we're not dealing with simple Newtonian thrust, there's some serious tapdancing around the laws of motion going on.

The only real issue here is how to call these things "impulse engines" when there's clearly a lot more going on.

I think what we've got here is an archaic term, probably dating back to Archer's time, maybe a wee bit earlier, sticking around as a matter of convenience.

For an admittedly weak example, how many here have made reference to "tin foil", even though it's a safe bet that none of us here have ever encountered anything but aluminum foil in our lifetimes?
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Old July 23 2009, 12:11 AM   #88
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The idea of the impulse engines as glorified rockets was barely plausible during TOS; by the time of TNG, it was clear that we're not dealing with simple Newtonian thrust, there's some serious tapdancing around the laws of motion going on.
The biggest reason why is because the Enterprise nor any other ship never experienced any relativistic effects of traveling at fractions of light speed.

For example Memory Alpha attributes 1 year for every season of Star Trek with no significant jumps because of relativistic travel. Obviously impuse engines are bypassing light speed theory.

The only real issue here is how to call these things "impulse engines" when there's clearly a lot more going on.
Perhaps another way of saying sub light.
Unlikely though.
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Old July 23 2009, 12:29 AM   #89
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The idea of the impulse engines as glorified rockets was barely plausible during TOS; by the time of TNG, it was clear that we're not dealing with simple Newtonian thrust, there's some serious tapdancing around the laws of motion going on.
The biggest reason why is because the Enterprise nor any other ship never experienced any relativistic effects of traveling at fractions of light speed.

For example Memory Alpha attributes 1 year for every season of Star Trek with no significant jumps because of relativistic travel. Obviously impuse engines are bypassing light speed theory.
Not so much...

If you really are conversant on the basic math behind the concept of "time dilation" you know that it's not a LINEAR function at all. Up until .75c, you see effectively no measurable effect whatsoever (certainly not enough to make a difference, I mean, though you might have to "sync" your clocks every time you slow down and establish an orbit).

While this is an oversimplified explanation of the math, it is effectively an exponential function... the closer you get to C, the faster the rate of "time dilation increase." The amount of "dilation" you get from going from, say, .911c to .912c is much greater than the amount you get by going from 0.000c to 0.750c.

For this reason, it's established, semi-canonically (in the TNG tech manual) that "impulse speeds are limited to .75c to avoid time dilation effects."

Of course, I don't entirely accept that, but it's clear that the folks who wrote that work were thinking along those terms. But it's still something I treat as PART of the answer. So, my "FTL impulse" is still limited to .75c... just the higher "effective c" which is seen when you operate within a "subspace bubble"... something like 100x what you see in real space-time.
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Old July 23 2009, 03:58 AM   #90
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post

Which is right there on the impulse engine. Now generate a V-shaped forcefield OVER that exhaust port--in the same way you posted in your airplane picture--to deflect the path of that stream forward, and what do you have?

That's completely speculative and against the infromation we've seen.
It's against nothing at all. No one has ever given any description how impulse engines provide reverse power. The closest thing we have is Scotty in "Relics" who mentions that reverse thrust produces a specific distribution pattern in the ion trail, which at least implies that something "different" happens to the exhaust during reverse thrust. A force field acting as a thrust reverser is the most logical explanation.

Such a disturbance would be very visible.
Only if the VFX people needed it to be visible, and 99% of the time, they don't. Hell, the RCS thruster plumes aren't even visible, even on shuttlecraft.

First of all, yes we do; impulse engines GLOW. Second of all, that's exactly what a release of ions looks like, especially at high temperature.
You say that as thought as though I implied impulse engines don't glow.
Not only do impulse engines glow the glow of that out put almost never changes due to thrust. Full impulse is the same lumious as 1/4 impulse.[/quote]
Impulse power is a measurement of thrust, not a measurement of glow. The engine can provide more thrust by either 1) increasing the output of its subspace field or 2) increasing the mass flow through the nozzle. Or both. Neither of which would result in a change in the "glow intensity" from the impulse engines.

On the other hand, the Constellation's impulse engines in TOS-R do glow slightly brighter just before the ship starts moving in "The Doomsday Machine." Same for the Enterprise-D's engines in "Booby Trap," and the Enterprise in TMP just before accelerating to warp .5. In STXI, the impulse engines glow to varrying degrees depending on how the ship is maneuvering, and actually CEASE to glow when the ship goes into warp (CGI is useful like that).

Again, it comes down to VFX. The model starships used over the last thirty years had the impulse engines lit with incandescent bulbs whose brightness could not be varied. I get the feeling they probably WOULD have if they could have.

-As far as High Temperature Ions: Please use an illistration to make you point.


You can see here the plasma in this fusion reactor is mostly invisible EXCEPT near the edges of the magnetic field where the plasma torus is more turbulent. Now extrapolate this into an impulse engine: the "glow" would not be in the plume, it would be concentrated against the walls of the engine bell (or magnetic nozzle as per TNG manual) and barely visible elsewhere.


This is a picture of an ion engine at full thrust. It resembles an impulse engine to me, how about you?

The orbiter's main engine shines brightly. The impulse engine doesn't shine at all.
It does in STXI.

Do not confuse lens flare with an actual technical detail.



This may merely be a case of artist rendition but this is a 3D image for simulation.
Actually, it's a 3D image from Orbitsim, a COMPUTER GAME, in particular one that renders most if not all engine exhaust plumes with the exact same graphic.

It's also another example that, in fiction, an engine can look like anything you want it to look like, science be damned. What counts is what the engine is envisioned as doing by its designers, and the TNG tech manual--not to mention the people who designed it--explicitly described it as a rocket-like device boosted by subspace fields.

I think the focus would make it dense enough to be visible.
Exhaust plumes do not have a focus.

While in normal space perhaps but at warp IDF is unnecessary.
Mostly, yes. But we know from ENT that warp fields can sometimes create some turbulent tidal forces and ships without IDF fields often experience some vibration and instability during acceleration and some warp maneuvers.

I would have to disagree.
That maybe because of what I think a warp field does.
Then I have no idea what you think a warp field does, and I can only repeat that velocity and mass are two completely different things.

I see. So why aren't they the same if you may convert one for another.
Because you can't make substances out of energy, and matter is not a quintessential quantity that describes the ability to do work.

Or to put that another way: matter is a substance, energy is what that substance can do. The equivalence of matter and energy means that if you sacrifice half of a given substance (by converting it into energy) the other half will be able to do twice as much work.

Fusion doesn't require an intermix chamber.
Neither do warp cores. Although in the Tekiverse both fusion and matter/antimatter power plants have been known to operate with intermix chambers.

Why call it a "Warp Core" if no one has ever gone to warp before?
Because the ship was designed to go to warp. I don't think Zephram Cochrane designed the Phoenix's engine to roast marshmallows.

Describing what the power unit will help him accomplish instead of what it actually was?
Why not? When they first flew the Columbia, NASA got their first real test of the "thermal protection system," or "heat shield." Why would they name it a "thermal protection system" if it had never protected Columbia from the heat of reentry before?

Well, duh: that's what it was DESIGNED for, what the hell else would they have named it?

Same with warp core. It's the engine core designed to power the warp drive; if that's what it was designed to do, why would he name it anything different?
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