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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old August 7 2009, 01:29 AM   #136
Plecostomus
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

TheWifeOfBrian wrote: View Post
*delete me*
She forgot to log off before handing the computer back to me.

Anyway!

I came up with this awhile back based on the fact that we've seen two serious incidents on TNG in which venting from the nacelles or the potential for venting triggered catastrophic emergency procedures.

Once in Cause And Effect, and once in that episode where Troi almost jumped into the nacelle.
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Old August 7 2009, 06:07 AM   #137
Timo
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Either that, or then venting of plasma is the first, automated step in defusing a potentially catastrophic situation.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 7 2009, 09:24 AM   #138
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

^^ I assume thats a tricky one,. maybe if you vent it too quickly then the core will melt through your hull and do a big Kboomm because there's no plasma around enough to get rid of its energy but if you have a runaway M/AM reactor then you don't want it too blast a huge amount of energy into the drive plasma system because that will also make things go Kboom or melt right through your hull, they're quite a handfull those M/AM reactors aren't they?
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Old August 7 2009, 02:02 PM   #139
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Santaman wrote: View Post
^^ I assume thats a tricky one,. maybe if you vent it too quickly then the core will melt through your hull and do a big Kboomm because there's no plasma around enough to get rid of its energy but if you have a runaway M/AM reactor then you don't want it too blast a huge amount of energy into the drive plasma system because that will also make things go Kboom or melt right through your hull, they're quite a handfull those M/AM reactors aren't they?
This is not nearly as complicated as it probably seems...

Think of a "steam-powered" system. Yes, the Enterprise isn't steam-powered, so please, don't anyone try to misquote me as saying so (I hate to have to say that, but there are folks on here who'll seize onto any opportunity to do so, we've all seen it!).

In this case, let's pretend that the "plasma" is merely a conductor. An ionized, pressurized plasma would certainly be effective for that purpose.

Plasma... which is, remember, the fourth phase of matter (solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma... plasma varying from gas solely by virtue of the electrons having been stripped from the nuclei)... will not necessarily follow the Ideal gas law (PV=nRT) perfectly, but is still going to follow the "general form" of of the law... that is, increase temperature, and you either increase volume or increase pressure (The difference between this and the classical version of the Ideal gas law is due to the "semi-metallic" characteristics of plasma due to the free electrons providing additional attraction... whereas gas exists as uncharged atoms or molecules.)


Okay, so say you have a runaway reactor outputing more energy into the "plasma" conductor (or whatever other purpose you envision for plasma). That plasma is confined to a given volume... the insides of the containing conduits and pipelines and chambers and so forth. With "V" being constant, and T increasing... you have a direct, proportional rise in pressure under the Ideal gas law.

Surely the ship's systems are tough, and designed to handle quite a bit of pressure, but get it hot enough and the pressure will risk rupturing the system.

How do you prevent that from happening?

Well, you either decrease "T" (which is normally not an option in the "Trekkian" situations we're talking about, being shot at by bad guys in full-on combat), or increase "V" (and how do you increase the volume of a fixed system? Short answer... you don't)... or you decrease "n" (the amount of material... not really in the form of "mass" here but proportional to mass).

How do you reduce the mass of "plasma" in the system? Simple... you "vent it to space."

This means you need to have a backup supply of this material, to "repressurize" that system once the temperature has returned to the normal range, of course... depending on whether this plasma is simple ionized hydrogen (the cheapest solution, and easily replenished) or something much more specialized (in which case, you'll need a supply of "replacement fluid" cannisters among your ship's stores), you'll still have to reintroduce mass later to get back to optimal operational conditions.

"Venting" is one of those things that really does make sense in the situations where we've seen it, given what we know.
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Old August 7 2009, 02:10 PM   #140
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....
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Old August 7 2009, 02:24 PM   #141
Vance
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....
Nope. It's clearly on-screen as being powered by beer.
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Old August 7 2009, 05:02 PM   #142
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
What did you think the GNDN tubes were for? The ship must have relied on fluid flows just as heavily as any ship of today does... Although probably not for lubrication of moving parts. Did Kirk's ship ever demonstrate moving parts? Apart from the shuttlebay doors, that is.

Timo Saloniemi
I'm at the point now where I'm thinking the ship probably uses some kind of rankine-cycle turbine (along with some other stuff, probably MHD generators or something) for power conversion. We've never seen them, of course, but I really think this is more likely than the idea that the entire ship is lined with a network of very small (and somewhat explosive) plasma conduits behind every bulkhead and console. Probably there's a series of refrigerator-sized electrical generators in every deck and compartment that use the charged plasma from the impulse/warp reactors into useable energy.
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Old August 7 2009, 05:28 PM   #143
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Saquist wrote: View Post
I never said or asserted, "there is no evidence that it doesn't occur." That is your Fifth Strawman so far.
Then I don't even know what your point is anymore, except just being argumentative.

If you know that's flawed logic then why have you used such reasoning to call your Rocket theory more sound?
More sound than WHAT? Did you propose an alternate theory or didn't you?

What I did say is that the very mention of a LIGHTSPEED is a reference to Relativity it'self
No, it's a reference to the fact that the speed of light moves at a certain speed and a starship is now moving faster than that speed. Einstein didn't discover light, you know.

There is no evidence of a forcefield reverse thrust any where in canon.
There's no evidence of time dilation or impulse engines as a field drive. Sauce for the goose.

That would only be true if the device could somehow over come relativistic issues at fractions of the speed of light.
Adequately explained in the TNG tech manual, and in detail I might add.

ON THE OTHER HAND, since you seem to be something of a canon-wonk, consider this: with a handful of exceptions, the visual record pretty much establishes "impulse speeds" to be nowhere even remotely close to light speed. In fact, if you go by visual cues from from the first six feature films (TMP notwithstanding) then we'd have to establish "full impulse power" at something in the neighborhood of a 100m/s. A field drive wouldn't be very fitting for these types of maneuvers, though a type of magnetoplasma rocket would more than suffice.

Actually, in MOST situations, starships rarely exhibit accelerations greater than a few dozen meters per second. It seems to me the only way to reconcile those few exceptions would be to take them at face value, really taking them AS exceptions and then build a technical explanation around them. The TNG tech manual describes an "overthrust" capacity produced by injecting small amounts of antimatter into the impulse exhaust; if you combine this with the "subspace driver coils" mentioned in the same chapter, then every instance of unusually high speed impulse velocities (such as in "Relics" where the Enterprise-D covers a distance of almost one AU in about three minutes) could be interpreted as some kind of "impulse afterburner" that allows high sub-light or even superluminal speeds at TREMENDOUSLY high fuel consumptions.

How would that help your argument?
You still wouldn't get most unless you based the list almost entirely off TOS.
Plus the lack of shield effects in TUC, the opening scene of Generations, the lack of shield effects in every major fleet battle of DS9, the invisibility of IDF/STI fields, and so on. Specific examples can be found in Way of the Warrior, Call to Arms, Favor the Bold, Sacrifice of Angels, Tears of the Prophets, For the Uniform, and mutliple scenes in Star Trek XI.

Once again: the only forcefields that are visible when disturbed are deflector shields and security forcefields. All other types seem to be completely transparent at all times, which makes sense, because REAL forcefields are invariably invisible unless they are acting on something sufficiently luminous.

That's the most I am willing to state on this issue, as I am compelled by the Prime Directive not to interfere with your self-induced rectal-cranial inversion with respect to this particular issue. There is nothing in canon that suggests any thrust reversal device MUST produce a visible forcefield; it remains the most logical solution that is consistent with the tech manual.

Of course an arguement can be validated by opposing information if your whole arguement was to contradict my argument.
It wasn't. My point was the tech manual suggests impulse engines are a reaction device, not a field drive, and certainly do not use drive plasma from the intermix chamber--or any other source--the way warp engines do. They do, instead, eject an exhaust plume at high velocities that imparts thrust on the starship, and (according to the TNG manual) they are aided in this task by use of subspace driver coils that reduce the effective mass of the ship.

I have no idea, now, what your argument actually is. You don't really seem to have one.
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Old August 7 2009, 05:30 PM   #144
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Vance wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....
Nope. It's clearly on-screen as being powered by beer.
LOL
I stand corrected!
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Old August 8 2009, 08:55 AM   #145
Captain Robert April
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

And now, the Pakled response:

Impulse engines make ship go. Warp engines make ship go really really fast.

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Old August 9 2009, 05:48 AM   #146
trevanian
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Vance wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....
Nope. It's clearly on-screen as being powered by beer.
Maybe they should have pissed it all away then; ejecting the whole of engineering into the black hole to escape would justify a refit to make that part of the ship look like it was built in a future century.
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Old August 10 2009, 04:46 PM   #147
Mytran
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
Hell, we don't even know if the plasma moves at all. Perhaps it's a stationary medium through which energy flows are passing from the reactor to the warp coils?

Sure, we hear of a "plasma stream" once or twice, but that could be inexact terminology to describe a situation where something is streaming through plasma...

Timo Saloniemi
This and C.L.B.'s linked explanation open up a way of thinking about "warp plasma" that had never occured to me before - and it's BRILLIANT! The fact that a M/AM reaction doesn't produce plasma, just energy has always bothered me - where was the plasma coming from? Now we know - it was in the pipes already.

I also agree with C.R.A. in that this approach helps to make sense of Voyager's hitherto bizarre handling of Trek engineering concepts. Not to mention the hoo-har about impurities in the sample of warp plasma in "Fair Trade"
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Old August 10 2009, 05:43 PM   #148
Saquist
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

trevanian wrote: View Post
Vance wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....
Nope. It's clearly on-screen as being powered by beer.
Maybe they should have pissed it all away then; ejecting the whole of engineering into the black hole to escape would justify a refit to make that part of the ship look like it was built in a future century.
It could have been a good segway into the next movie.
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Old September 8 2009, 12:50 AM   #149
T'Girl
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

[QUOTE=newtype_alpha;3274376]
Saquist wrote: View Post

Of course an arguement can be validated by opposing information if your whole arguement was to contradict my argument.
It wasn't. My point was the tech manual suggests impulse engines are a reaction device, not a field drive, and certainly do not use drive plasma from the intermix chamber--or any other source--the way warp engines do. They do, instead, eject an exhaust plume at high velocities that imparts thrust on the starship, and (according to the TNG manual) they are aided in this task by use of subspace driver coils that reduce the effective mass of the ship.
newtype alpha you might also of used the example of "Preemptive Strike", the second to the last TNG episode, in which Lieutenant Ro leads a Marquis raid on the Enterprise D,. She penetrates the shields by taking a small ship thru the area where the impulse exhaust passes thru the aft shields, a weak point that makes a lot of sense.
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Old September 8 2009, 12:55 AM   #150
docclan1
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Re: Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

no but honestly................................think about this................does data have hairy balls...????..................or for that ,matter does he have balls......................wait dont answer the last coz he was apparenty...correct....still unsure regarding his nut sacks tho!!
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