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Old May 2 2009, 01:48 AM   #16
Temis the Vorta
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

I like the idea of the Company vs Homeland Security (and hope Danko is back) - seems to be where they are going next season anyway.

But without Sylar, Peter or Nathan through much of this season, I suspect I would have stopped watching early on in S2. Matt's fun but Angela is pointless without her sons being present and I really don't care about Nikki, DL, Hiro and Claire.

Yknow what's missing in this show? Why aren't smart regular people realizing that the existence of metahumans can be used to get themselves money and power. The essential problem of metahumans is that they cause power imbalances. They are too powerful versus normal people, but if they were somehow captured and manipulated by normal people, they could end up making the normals too powerful and undermining the social order.

If normals learned about the existence of metahumans, their first reaction would be fear and their second reaction would be greed. How can I manipulate or coerce these people to use their powers in my self-interest? The metahumans may seem dazzingly powerful but they are still a mere handful of people. Imagine Sylar vs a nation with a sizeable army - he could do some damage but they'd corral him pretty quickly, either through a clever plan, brute force. or just the promise to feed him metahumans on a regular basis.

Somebody
should want to use Sylar (or any of the rest) in nefarious schemes, or just dissect them. Danko actually had the right idea, he just needed to stay further ahead of Sylar than he did. Not letting his colleagues know Sylar was a shapeshifter, for instance. If the normals stuck together and came up with clever plans, they could manipulate a deluded nutcase like Sylar into doing their bidding. As long as he's getting what he wants, he'll do as they say.

The irony that these incredibly powerful metahumans are actually more threatened than threats is interesting. Many of them are not terribly smart and even the smart ones have psychological issues that make them prone to manipulation. Now that several normals know the truth, that threat should be coalescing rapidly.

They're not complex characters. That's what makes Hiro a fun character. He's like Army of Darkness. Fun, kickass movie.
I've never seen that movie, but I suspect I wouldn't much care for it. "Simple" isn't something I generally go for. And something simple can work okay in a two hour movie; it doesn't work very well when you have to stretch it over years of a TV series. That's when "simple" becomes "stupid" and then "unwatchable."

Hiro is about kicking evil's ass. Sure it's cartoony. But I think it's fun.
Fun for two hours, tops. Hey, I liked Hiro when he was introduced in S1 for a few episodes, and then he started to wear out his welcome. And after a few years, you wonder why he's still around.

Peter's Anakian Skywalker. Uber-powers, Mommy issues and all. He's angry and emo about everything. Hiro's Luke Skywalker. Daddy issues and all. He's a light-hearted, fun, adventureous character who does good for it's own sake.
You mean Peter has depth that can be put to good use in a long form drama like a TV series whereas Hiro's simplistic take on the character type is best reserved for two hour movie format, so the shallowness of the character doesn't have time to become glaringly obvious.

Peter has an interior life that gives him some depth, and he's a remarkably positive person considering how he's been kicked around. Hiro gives me the impression of a stuffed animal with nothing inside.

Whiny, spoiled, smartass cheerleader who desperatly wants to be normal more then anyting in the world but that doesn't count when she makes out with her superpowered, stalker boytoy.
So she has Data's "Pinocchio" character arc. Claire did used to have that arc but the trouble is, if she wants to have a normal life while everyone else is fighting for their lives, she just looks selfish, so that's why they dropped it. Doesn't work in this show.
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Old May 2 2009, 03:41 AM   #17
Joe Washington
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Temis the Vorta: What about in addition to what I already written, that during his search for special people, Mohinder starts receiving mysterious messages from an unknown source who warns him about the Company planning something bad (the Shanti virus?) which would endanger a number of people. When Mohinder and the source meet, Mohinder is shocked to find out that it's Peter back from the dead. Only he has a scar across his face. Mohinder is eager to know what happened to Peter after the explosion but Peter refuses to get into that and just gives Mohinder bits of information to help him stop the Company. What Mohinder doesn't know is that Peter is working for someone who wants the Company destroyed for a very personal reason and wants his hands on the Shanti virus for him to use for his own purposes. Peter is doing against his will because the person he works for is threatening to kill his brother Nathan, who he has locked up somewhere unknown, if he doesn't do everything he says. So we have a three-way war between the Company, Danko's group, and the mysterious third party has Peter under his thumb.

We also find out after blowing up and putting himself back together thanks to Claire's regenerative ability, Peter could only absorb one ability at a time. If he tries to take on more, he would be the verge of another power overload like the one at the Kirby Plaza or maybe worst than that. This would put a limit on Peter's absorbing ability and keep him from becoming an all-powerful superhero.
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Old May 2 2009, 04:15 AM   #18
Mr Light
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

They need to become the X-Men, which with them forming a new Company I'm hoping that's how it will turn out. They need to be a cohesive team that lives together in one location and works together as a team. They need to stop the bad mutants and recruit the good mutants. I know it's not going to happen but they need to kill off Sylar ASAP rather than continue to give him ridiculous storylines; having Nathan's identity in him is by the most ludicrous one yet! Also they need a Big Bad Mutant Mastermind who is NOT Sylar, basically like Arthur Petrelli was in the "Villains" volume. Everybody seemed to hate him but I loved him.
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Old May 2 2009, 04:26 AM   #19
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

To fix Heroes, we'd need to go all the way back to the very first episode. Give Hiro the ability to stop and restart time and teleport through space, but not the ability to travel through time. The first three volumes all began with Hiro and/or Peter traveling into the future, discovering a new catastrophe, and then returning to the present to try and stop it from happening. Time travel makes things too easy.

Peter never should have been nerfed. They'd already given him a limitation in season one: he can only use a specific power when he draws on the emotions he feels for the character he leeched it from. He can't constantly use his powers or he'll overload and go boom.

Kill Sylar at the end of "How to Stop an Exploding Man." He just became overexposed after that. Also let Nathan die after sacrificing himself to carry Peter away from New York City. Hiro doesn't end up in feudal Japan at the beginning of Generations. Instead, have Hiro's father originally be Takezo Kensei; unlike Hiro, he can't stop/restart time or teleport, but he can travel through time. Have Kensei/Kaito betray Adam Monroe in the past and set him on his vendetta, which would extend to Hiro (and the Company) in the present.

Never give Mohinder or Ando powers. Mohinder should have remained the powerless narrator, and Ando probably shouldn't have appeared again after Volume One. Neither should have Claire. Her usefulness was played out after Sylar failed to take her power in V1.

Bryan Fuller shouldn't have left to go do Pushing Daisies. Sorry, PD fans.

Oh, and no gorram precognitive painting!
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Old May 2 2009, 05:35 AM   #20
Thrall
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

.
I've never seen that movie, but I suspect I wouldn't much care for it. "Simple" isn't something I generally go for. And something simple can work okay in a two hour movie; it doesn't work very well when you have to stretch it over years of a TV series. That's when "simple" becomes "stupid" and then "unwatchable."
Seriously? It's like a sin against geekdom to not like Bruce Campbell and Army of Darkness. Or so I've been told.

Most sitcoms are "simple". Most genre TV up until a decade or so ago was "simple". Chuck, could be described as "simple". I don't consider Hiro to be "simple". I consider him to be "classic" or "traditional". He's very much a traditional, mythological, hero with a modern geek flair. Stan Lee could have easily created him. That idealistic young boy, armed with his fathers sword and his own destiny, journeys off to fight evil. Persus. Luke Skywalker. Hiro. All fit the profile of Cambell's The Hero Cycle. He's a modern Greek myth. A retro-Arthurian. And if he is "simple", then he's my kind of simple.


Fun for two hours, tops. Hey, I liked Hiro when he was introduced in S1 for a few episodes, and then he started to wear out his welcome. And after a few years, you wonder why he's still around.
1)The fans adore him.

2)His huge popularity as a character was one of the main reasons the first season was such a smash hit.

3)His comedic dorkishness and child-like view of the world is a good counter balance to every one else's personal melodrama, cynicism, anger, and angst. Everyone else is all emo about their powers or about what ever personal Hell they're going through at the moment. Hiro lets people get away from that and actually smile. Without him, the show would be NuBSG with Superpowers. And there's enough nihilisim and dark anger in genre TV already.

You mean Peter has depth that can be put to good use in a long form drama like a TV series whereas Hiro's simplistic take on the character type is best reserved for two hour movie format, so the shallowness of the character doesn't have time to become glaringly obvious.

Peter has an interior life that gives him some depth, and he's a remarkably positive person considering how he's been kicked around. Hiro gives me the impression of a stuffed animal with nothing inside.
Well yeah. Hiro, at the end of the day, is sort of a comedy character. Not ment to be taken totally seriously. Part homage and parody of the comic book nerd worldview. But then we get to the main reason people tend to prefer Hiro over Peter: Hiro, despite his naive nature, is the guy who grows a pair and gets shit done. While Peter is constantly lamenting what ever personal melodrama he's going through(I've lost track at this point), Hiro is the one doing what needs to be done. Taking out The Bad Guy. Saving the innocent. You name it. Peter's just takes it from everyone and gets used time and time again like a Vegas hooker. Whatever depth he may have as a person is undercut time and time again by his weakness of moral character. Peter the Brain is the one who ends up trying to destroy the world time and time again because of it. Hiro the Fool is the one who ends up saving it. So, in the end, who's the real fool.

Don't get me wrong, I've always liked Peter. But I wish they could make him actually live up to his heroic potential more and quit being used for evil purposes.
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Old May 2 2009, 09:51 AM   #21
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Apparently everyone now loathes Heroes. This is the thread for venting, or making suggestions for improvement, in one of two ways:

1. If you think it is salvageable, what can they do in S4 to salvage it?
1. Restore Peter and Hiro's powers to their season one levels and properly explore them and the costs, dangers and limits of using them. If Peter's ability to recall powers is dependent on empathy, then say he can't recall powers from people he doesn't empathize with (but can still copy them if they're in the room with him). Say Hiro can't actually change the past and can only observe without causing one of those rifts he talked about.

In addition to that, never EVER depower another character. There's a reason why the Women in Refrigerators types treat depowering the same as rape.

2. Introduce lesser villains. It doesn't have to be the Big Bad or nothing. If there are all these people with powers, and there's no Company to catch them, surely some of them would be using their powers for criminal acts. The return of Tracy Strauss is a good idea here.

3. Make Claire less useless. Perhaps instead of the constant I Hate You/I Love You relationship she has with her father, she should be the One of Them to his One of Us. Her power is very passive right now, so she should learn to fight from her dad.

4. Mohinder is very much like the X-Men's Beast. There are some interesting ideas for him there.

5. Add a new female hero. This show is turning in to a sausage fest. Failing that, bring back Monica. Her power had a lot of potential. Or, introduce Barbara as a hero but keep Tracy around and let Ali Larter play both parts.

6. Cut out the ridiculous Light Side/Dark Side of the Force idea. It's not universally true, but the good guys often seem to have very passive powers while the bad guys get more active, aggressive powers.

Remember how the Jedi never used Force Lightning because it's a Dark Side power ? That's what I'm getting at. No ability is good or evil, it's how it's used. Superman has heat vision but doesn't go around burning bank robbers to death.

7. Have the heroes and villains use their powers in smarter ways.

8. Stop frustrating the audience - this connects to #1, but they made a big deal out of Peter copying Sylar's powers and them finally having the big fight but then Peter only copied his Shape Shifting and the fight was behind closed doors.

Similarly, why hasn't Ando tried boosting the other Heroes' powers ? Why wouldn't Peter ask why his powers don't work the way they used to ? Nobody ever asks the simple question "why ?"
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Old May 2 2009, 10:43 AM   #22
All Seeing Eye
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
If you don't want to find out that Mohinder is now a blonde cheerleader due to that nasty transporter accident, begone!
WHAT!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Anyway, my thoughts:

  • Give Peter his original ability back.
  • Give Hiro his original abilities back.
  • Forget about Sylar for a long while. IMO opinion they should have got Parkman to do his Jedi mind trick on him so he can no longer suffer "the hunger" and then give the guy some councelling and have him become a good guy.
  • Bring in a new villain who has only one power but that power makes him/her more powerful than all the other heroes put together. I think a villain with the ability to generate force fields would suffice. He/she would be protected by pretty much everyone else's abilities and the forcefield could even protect them from Parkmans mind tricks and even protect them from Hiros time freezing capability. It could also be dangerous for Ando to use his ability on him/her because it causes the expansion of the shield which could be enough to wipe out several city blocks. The shield ability could also be used offensively ie. like on the Fantastic 4. Their motivation for being a bad guy is that they believe the world has gone to shit and everyone is greedy and everyone must pay for their greed.
  • Claire for me has become pure boredom. Give her a costume and have her go off crime fighting or something.
  • Bring in a new character with the ability to dimension jump. There are numerous alternate realities and he is capable of jumping between them all and jumps into this one. He's a good guy and he's been jumping between different realities warning the heroes of the cataclysms that have occurred in other dimensions in the hopes of preventing them happening in all of the dimensions. I think an interesting episode could be this new character enlists Hiro's help (after he get's his powers back ) he jumps Hiro back to his own reality and asks Hiro to send him back through time to try and save his own reality. There are some cool possibilities with this ability, for example in one episode he might get thrown from a building and he's falling to his death so he jumps himself to another dimension he's been to before that's become a water world from melting ice caps, he jumps to this other reality and falls into the water, climbs out then jumps back.
  • IMO we just don't see enough of peoples abilities being used, it's all talk talk talk. I want more action. I think we've seen Andos power about 3 or 4 times in bouts of mere seconds. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!!
OR and this is a big OR: The character I just mentioned with the shield ability could be the good guy and the dimension jumping guy could be the bad guy. imagine if they killed the dimension jumping guy thinking they'd won only for another of the infinite number of them in alternate universes to show up. Just imagine how scary his power is, he could touch someone and send them into another reality never to be able to return, goodbye claire bear.
Also just cos this guy from the alternate reality if a bad guy doesn't mean the same dimension jumping guy from this reality is a bad guy. Could be interesting to watch the interaction between two of the same people from different realities.

Last edited by All Seeing Eye; May 2 2009 at 11:37 AM.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:45 PM   #23
Dac
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Personally, I'd have Hiro begin to loose touch with reality, being sicker and sicker until he decides whats happened isnt worth all the pain and suffering he and others endured. Ando supercharges him (you know, what his whole frakin power is to begin with) and he goes back to Kirby plaza on the night they killed sylar - except this time Hiro shows up before Younger Hiro does and outright cuts his head off - preventing any form of recovery. This last act leaves Hiro on the verge of death, and as Younger Hiro shows up, Older Hiro says something like "You didnt have to become the monster to be a hero..." or some such.

From there on you have a clean slate to fix all the mistakes the show made from that point on. I liked D.L. - Sure, he wasnt the best character on the show, but DL, Nikki and Micah were a family, moreso than the Petrellis. Same as Mohinder who was the normal person who was caught up in it all.

I feel as the show moved on it lost the touchstones for the viewers, the likeable characters, the powerless humans doing the best they can and still outshining the superheroes from time to time and an ordinary family who isnt the head of some super secret organisation just trying to get through it all in one piece.

This way, we could reintroduce fan favourate Kristen Bell as Elle and just work out what the characters motivations are and what they are setting out to do. Drama works best when the Characters act like real people and dont fall victim to idiot plots like the show has been retreading since Season 2.
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Old May 2 2009, 04:18 PM   #24
DWF
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

No reset buttons, keep the heroes together in small if they have to, give Claire something of a normal life with her family and no more terrible futures to be averted.
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Old May 2 2009, 05:25 PM   #25
Cky
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

I fucking hate Ali Larter, she's such a dry and soulless actor.
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Old May 2 2009, 05:31 PM   #26
All Seeing Eye
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Cky wrote: View Post
I fucking hate Ali Larter, she's such a dry and soulless actor.
I agree, she sucks but Tracy Strauss was a triplet, we've seen two of them it's only fair we see the 3rd triplet and they should kill her off too.
Now the question is, what power/ability should this 3rd triplet have and how should they kill her off?
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Old May 2 2009, 06:15 PM   #27
McCoy
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Hyperspace05 wrote: View Post
How to fix Heroes? Clean house... Start over with a whole new cast of characters ... Just as the original concept was.
You know what? Maybe the joke's on us because I think that's what they are doing. They start every volume with new characters, they just don't change their names or the actors playing them.

That's why the characterization is so wildly inconsistent.
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Old May 2 2009, 07:54 PM   #28
Temis the Vorta
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Also they need a Big Bad Mutant Mastermind who is NOT Sylar, basically like Arthur Petrelli was in the "Villains" volume. Everybody seemed to hate him but I loved him.
He was a good idea but the actor they hired wasn't up to the task. Yknow who I would have preferred? Peter Coyote. He looks like he could be Nathan and Peter's dad and he does "subtle creepiness" very well.

Maybe they can bring Arthur back with amazing shapeshifting powers and that will excuse the change in casting? After all, he isn't "really" dead, just because there's a bullet lodged in the sweet spot.

Give Hiro the ability to stop and restart time and teleport through space, but not the ability to travel through time. The first three volumes all began with Hiro and/or Peter traveling into the future, discovering a new catastrophe, and then returning to the present to try and stop it from happening. Time travel makes things too easy.
Here's how to bring time travel back into the plotline without it being a story killer: without visions to guide them, nobody knows what to do in the future or past to make things "okay." You could try something you think is going to work and it just fraks things up worse. They've already sorta learned this lesson, I think.

Angela's visions are too vague and open to interpretation to provide decent guidance. No other visionary character should be allowed (nerf Matt's vision-quest powers if he still has them) because they are writers' crutches. The only way to get time travel to work is in combo with Sylar's seeing power, but that makes the weilder insane. So that rules out time travel as a useful power, while leaving open one possible way to use it, but only at extremely high risk, and only when the stakes are extremely high.
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Old May 2 2009, 07:56 PM   #29
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

I think if there is going to be a new villain, they need it to be someone who is completely unconnected to all of the characters.

It would be awesome though, if somehow this new villain was working behind the scenes, or perhaps they were the reason for the eclipse (that could be one of their powers, or side effects).
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Old May 2 2009, 07:58 PM   #30
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
2. If you think it is unsalvageable, where did they go wrong and describe what they should have done instead.
They went wrong by putting it on the air in the first place.

What NBC shoulda done was reject the pilot.

Failing that, the cheerleader and Hiro shoulda died in the first season.
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