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Old May 1 2009, 11:43 PM   #1
Temis the Vorta
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fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Apparently everyone now loathes Heroes. This is the thread for venting, or making suggestions for improvement, in one of two ways:

1. If you think it is salvageable, what can they do in S4 to salvage it?

2. If you think it is unsalvageable, where did they go wrong and describe what they should have done instead.

There will be many many spoilers in this thread, natch. If you don't want to find out that Mohinder is now a blonde cheerleader due to that nasty transporter accident, begone!
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Old May 1 2009, 11:49 PM   #2
Dar70
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

I stopped watching with the episode that ripped off the fly. This show was getting just plain boring to tell the truth.
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Old May 1 2009, 11:59 PM   #3
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

They went wrong with the season 1 finale. Everything is leading up to Sylar being killed - and the inexplicably, they decide not to kill him off. But he had served his purpose in S1 of bringing the heroes together. He should have been killed off.

And then pretty much everything since they has been centered around Sylar.

How to fix Heroes? Clean house... Start over with a whole new cast of characters (and that means NOT casting Ali Larter as her 4th character) - Just as the original concept was. I truly think that the current characters are unsavable now.

I have certainly lost interest.
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Old May 2 2009, 12:12 AM   #4
Kelso
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Focus as many episodes as possible on Zachary Quinto. He's carrying the damn show.

Give logical motivations to the other characters and try keep them from acting like idiots. Also, don't rely on any of the actors to actually act (except that guy who plays Noah). Let it be a surprise when it actually happens. Try to keep Claire Bennett from speaking at all.

Have Peter Petrelli say something other than "I hate/love you, Nathan."
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Old May 2 2009, 12:24 AM   #5
Temis the Vorta
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

How to fix Heroes? Clean house... Start over with a whole new cast of characters (and that means NOT casting Ali Larter as her 4th character)
Ideas for who to cast and characters for them to play?

I've spotted someone who'd be good on the show: Armie Hammer, who lately played Morgan, Sam's spawn of Satan brother on Reaper. Since that show is probably doomed, he'd be free. I wouldn't necessarily cast him as a villain, tho.

I'd love to see Edward James Olmos as a superbaddie. No aliens on Heroes, right?

Let's replace Zachary Quinto with Zachary Levi - I think he'd kick ass as a villain. I'm hopeful that Chuck will come back but if it doesn't...

And speaking of Chuck, Ryan McPartlin deserves to become Captain Awesome for real.
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Old May 2 2009, 12:39 AM   #6
Dorian Thompson
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Get rid of everyone except HRG, Angela, Nathan--real Nathan--and Peter. Never speak the name Sylar again and don't give Peter multiple powers. No time travel. Craft stories that require the heroes to act like heroes and save people again. It's as simple as that.

Get rid of Kring, Fuller etc. Hire Eric Kripke, Ben Edlund, Jeremy Carver, Sera Gamble, and Ben Edlund away from the CW to craft the story arcs and write scripts.
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Old May 2 2009, 12:43 AM   #7
Thrall
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

A large part of the problem was that the examination of the characters and the slow revelations of their backstories is what drove most of the first season. Most of the characters were like a wrapped present. The more you tore away the more you wanted to keep going. But once everything was opened, there was no more mystery to the characters. Characters could act unpredictable, because nothing was established yet about them. So one could interpret that as just another layer. But once all that was over, they became established and any unpredictability seemed out of character because of it.

There was nothing more to explore with the these characters. We knew everything about them now. And so many of the characters became boring without the mystery. Which showed the weakness of Kring's writing. He doesn't understand established characterization. He still wants the characters to be unpredictable in their behavior. But by making established characters unpredictable, it more so makes them stupid, bi-polar, and unrelatable to.

This is why Kring should have kept to his original premise. A new cast each season. An open book of characters every year. It would have greatly disguised his short comings as a writer. Would it have alienated fans by replacing their beloved characters with new upstarts? Maybe. Not if they had kept a few. Hiro could have stayed on, as he has enough charm and classic adherance to The Hero Cycle to make up for Krings failings, which is why his material is usually the strongest. Parkman has enough one-dimensional "every man" charm to him I suppose. HRG going solo, minus Claire Bear and The Clan, would be nice. Either way, it couldn't have been much worse then what we got.

The Patrelli Brothers should have died. First, because coming back undercut their arcs. Their sacrifice was for nothing. Secondly, because the writers obviously have no idea what to do with an Ubermech like Peter and the more mundane, nuanced Nathan. Peter's too much for them to handle(which is why they eventually de-powered him). Nathan is too little. Which is why most of their stories over the past 2 seasons have either been derivative of season one, or just random as fuck with stupid motovations.

But, yes The Sylar worship is a huge symptom of what went wrong. Whenever a show starts worshiping the bad boy, it usually turns to shit. It's not always the cuase, but a terrible symptom of what went wrong. Like Buffy, Battlestar Galactica, or Lost. Sylar is a great villain, make no mistake about it. But he's been horribly overused and overexposed because of it. And with that overexposure, the act got old. There's a reason why Magneto isn't in every issue of X-Men or The Joker is in every issue Batman. When they show up it's an event. It's a "holy shit it's The Joker!" moment. It creates excitment and unpredictablity. You know shit is going to hit the fan at that moment right there. Having Sylar constantly around makes him boring and makes the heroes look incompetent because they can't get rid of him.
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Old May 2 2009, 12:45 AM   #8
ZeNd
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Just get it over with and rename it The Sylar Show.
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Old May 2 2009, 12:56 AM   #9
Temis the Vorta
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Craft stories that require the heroes to act like heroes and save people again.
That seems to be where they're going in S4 - they're re-forming the Company but since the likes of Matt, Mohinder, Peter and Claire will now be involved, it presumably won't be as sinister as before.

But if the writers are honest, it should at least be somewhat sinister. They are, after all, functioning as vigilante law enforcement. Maybe they are forced to, for self-defense - they have to round up all the other Sylars out there just to keep the metahuman threat from breaking onto public consciousness - but it should never been shown as morally easy.

Get rid of Kring, Fuller etc. Hire Eric Kripke, Ben Edlund, Jeremy Carver, Sera Gamble, and Ben Edlund away from the CW to craft the story arcs and write scripts.
I dunno who they are, but if Chuck ends up cancelled (which hopefully won't be the case), those writers should be hired - they write very disciplined stories that don't go all wild and wooly on us, but are still creative, and definitely have a good sense of humor as well as the all-important heartstrings-tugging routine.

A large part of the problem was that the examination of the characters and the slow revelations of their backstories is what drove most of the first season. Most of the characters were like a wrapped present. The more you tore away the more you wanted to keep going. But once everything was opened, there was no more mystery to the characters.
The writers need to keep the characters moving on their character arcs, and in some cases, they need to start the character arcs. What are Claire and Hiro's arcs again? To grow up? Gotta be more interesting than that, and even if that were good enough, they've made no progress in three frakking years! At least Peter and Matt have gotten off the starting line.

They also need to have the guts to drop or kill characters who reach the end of their arc. Noah for instance, everyone loves him, but does he have an arc? He just pingpongs with Claire's mood swings. Angela is on an arc that leads over a cliff. Fine, then - that isn't a bad idea, but the writers have to push her over the cliff when the time comes for it.
This is why Kring should have kept to his original premise. A new cast each season.
Given the very poor track record that Kring has had with introducing new characters, that would have gotten the show cancelled by now. I'm not interested in wiping out the S1 characters so I can get a cast of Mayas and Alejandros and Wests.

There have been a constant parade of new characters, but the only successful ones have been Elle, Danko and arguably Daphne (but even in her case, she's marginal.) The only reason to stick with this show is because you like these particular characters. The idea of watching a meaningless gaggle of people played by the level of mediocre and charisma-free actors they insist on hiring discover their superpowers would get repetitive quickly.

Last edited by Temis the Vorta; May 2 2009 at 01:10 AM.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:11 AM   #10
Thrall
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

The writers need to keep the characters moving on their character arcs, and in some cases, they need to start the character arcs. What are Claire and Hiro's arcs again? To grow up? Gotta be more interesting than that, and even if that were good enough, they've made no progress in three frakking years! At least Peter and Matt have gotten off the starting line.
Hiro and Claire had arcs at one point, but the writers forgot about them. Hiro was Luke Skywalker. Claire was Buffy Summers. Trying to make them more complex characters then they needed to be is what killed them.

They also need to have the guts to drop or kill characters who reach the end of their arc. Noah for instance, everyone loves him, but does he have an arc? He just pingpongs with Claire's mood swings. Angela is on an arc that leads over a cliff. Fine, then - that isn't a bad idea, but the writers have to push her over the cliff when the time comes for it.
I agree. HRG should have died protecting Claire at some point. I still think Nathan and Peter should have blown up at the end of season one.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:13 AM   #11
Temis the Vorta
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Hiro was Luke Skywalker. Claire was Buffy Summers.
Peter's Luke Skywalker, too. That's the problem, you don't need two characters of that type.

And what the heck was Buffy's arc? (Sorry I could never get into that show.) I thought she just killed vampires and occasionally slept with them.
Trying to make them more complex characters then they needed to be is what killed them.
How are they complex characters? They strike me as exceedingly simple, which is part of their problem. Hiro likes playing around being a hero for some reason, probably to avoid having to take on grownup responsibilities and working in some boring office. Lately, Claire has gotten it into her head to mimic Uncle Peter and play at being a hero, and get angry when people don't think she has any useful power.

Why are Hiro and Claire acting this way? Their motives don't seem to stem from their innate personality and drives, which makes it all seem shallow. They happen to have powers that allow them to live out fantasy lives or fit into a family that's cooler than their own boring family. The former is more Hiro's motive and the latter is Claire's, but in neither case can I respect the character.

What works better is when the person had a pre-existing career in a "helping" profession. Peter and Matt can be assumed to have pure motives because of their career choices. When they run off to be a hero, it's because that's truly who they are. And even without a power, Peter became a paramedic. The powers don't run his life. Mohinder being a geneticist also shows that his motives are innate and not just a by-product of having powers, which in his case, was a dumb idea and should be rescinded.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:13 AM   #12
Dorian Thompson
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

What's wrong with complex characters? That's what makes a show worth watching.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:15 AM   #13
Joe Washington
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

What about this? Everything that happened in the Season 1 finale stay the way it is. Only we don't see Sylar until Season 3, which would leave the audience wondering during Season 2 if he's really dead or alive somehow.

Matt's wife Janice didn't leave him but was instead kidnapped by someone involved with the Company. Out of his desperation to save his family, Matt joins a government organization that's been tracking and investigating rumors of the existence of people with special abilities. So far they investigated a number of Sylar's murders, the incident at the Homecoming in Odessa, the Kirby Plaza incident, and some of the Company's activities. Danko (who was one of the few favorable characters in Season 3) is the head of the organization and is trying to convince the President how criticial the organization in protection of the general public from those kind of people. Matt could be the very thing he needs to effectively prove that these people exist and how much of a threat they can be to others although Danko doesn't tell Matt this and goes along with his quest to find his wife for the chance of getting at the Company, who have been a major pain in Danko's butt. Matt is partnered with Agent Audrey Hanson who's been recruited by the Organization because of her role in the Sylar investigation. Matt is still suffering from some pain from his gunshot wounds and is getting increasingly addicted to painkillers.

Meanwhile, the Company is considering resorting to drastic measures to keep Danko from exposing their existence and making the very thing they feared would happen to them if revealed publicly to come true. They're even considering using the Shanti virus to distract Danko and his group long enough for them to go deep underground and bring the Company back when it's 100% in shape, which it hasn't since Linderman used it to put into motion his plan to blow up New York City.

Angela is trying to convince the other Founders not to do this while using some of the Company's agents without the Founders' knowledge to track down her sons, Nathan and Peter. To prevent any probing into their disappearances, Angela has assigned Candice to impersonate Nathan and came up with a clever cover story for Peter's absence. But Candice's impersonation of Nathan may not fool others for long as Nathan's wife Heidi and their kids begin to suspect something's not right with Nathan.

With Angela distracted by her search for her sons and Hiro's father waiting endlessly for her son to come back from the past, some of the Founders are secretly plotting to unleash the Shanti virus without a majority vote, which is how they can usually vote on things in their meetings. One of the Founders is the father of Matt's wife Janice. He was the one who sent the Haitian to get her to a secure location away from the wave of death that will occur in the virus's rampage. Janice doesn't know about her father's involvement in the Company and hasn't spoken to him in years.

Nikki and Micah are living with Mohinder and Molly at the flat. They didn't have anywhere in mind to go after D.L. died of his gunshot wound. Mohinder offer to take them in so they can have a roof over their heads and have time to consider their options. Over time, Nikki and Micah have grown accustomed to life with Mohinder and Molly. Before anyone have any ideas, there won't be any love stirring between Mohinder and Nikki. They'll just become close friends. From time to time, Mohinder would leave the flat to continue his quest to seek out others who are different like Peter and Matt and protect them from people like the Company. Meanwhile, Nikki is becoming a surrogate mother to Molly, and Micah and Molly are developing a close bond.

Hiro won't return to the show until the end of the first half of the season when he comes back from his time in the past a changed man. The new Hiro would be a bit grim and braver than he was before after spending a few years in ancient Japan.

I don't what to do with Peter and Nathan but I let some time pass before bringing them back into the show, maybe before Hiro's return. HRG and Claire we'll maybe see in the second half of the season to see how their life have been after the Season 1 finale and how Lyle and Mrs. Bennett are dealing with living on the run. I would give Lyle his own personal storyline to explore his reactions to what his family has been through with Claire having regenerative powers, his father turning out to be a secret agent for all these years, and some evil Company coming after them, forcing them to move from place to place constantly.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:39 AM   #14
Thrall
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

Peter's Luke Skywalker, too. That's the problem, you don't need two characters of that type.
Peter's Anakian Skywalker. Uber-powers, Mommy issues and all. He's angry and emo about everything. Hiro's Luke Skywalker. Daddy issues and all. He's a light-hearted, fun, adventureous character who does good for it's own sake.

And what the heck was Buffy's arc? (Sorry I could never get into that show.) I thought she just killed vampires and occasionally slept with them.
Whiny, spoiled, smartass cheerleader who desperatly wants to be normal more then anyting in the world but that doesn't count when she makes out with her superpowered, stalker boytoy.

How are they complex characters? They strike me as exceedingly simple, which is part of their problem. Hiro likes playing around being a hero for some reason, probably to avoid having to take on grownup responsibilities and working in some boring office. Lately, Claire has gotten it into her head to mimic Uncle Peter and play at being a hero, and get angry when people don't think she has any useful power.

Why are Hiro and Claire acting this way? Their motives don't seem to stem from their innate personality and drives, which makes it all seem shallow. They happen to have powers that allow them to live out fantasy lives or fit into a family that's cooler than their own boring family. The former is more Hiro's motive and the latter is Claire's, but in neither case can I respect the character.

What works better is when the person had a pre-existing career in a "helping" profession. Peter and Matt can be assumed to have pure motives because of their career choices. When they run off to be a hero, it's because that's truly who they are. And even without a power, Peter became a paramedic. The powers don't run his life. Mohinder being a geneticist also shows that his motives are innate and not just a by-product of having powers, which in his case, was a dumb idea and should be rescinded.
You misunderstood me. They're not complex characters. That's what makes Hiro a fun character. He's like Army of Darkness. Fun, kickass movie. But it's not complex. And if anyone attempted to make it more complex if they remade it, would be met with scorn. Same deal with Hiro. The attempts they've made this season to make him more complex and nuanced have met with failure. Putting him against Ando and trying to bring on the anger and angst are contrary to the nature of the character and what he is about. Hiro is not about complexity. Hiro is about kicking evil's ass. Sure it's cartoony. But I think it's fun.
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Old May 2 2009, 01:41 AM   #15
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Re: fix Heroes (spoilers thru S3 finale)

I still like Heroes, I've never really gone off it. I didn't like some of the storylines they did, but I'm currently up to episode 12 of series one of my marathon so I'll probably have a more in-depth discussion about the later series.

I'm glad D.L. was killed, I was a little annoyed it was done inetween series, but atleast they showed his death in series two.

I wish Hiro didn't change, I keep seeing cute little things that he does during series one which always make me smile and answer with an "awh", I haven't seen one of those during volume four. And Ando's status keeps changing, which just makes the storyline confusing. He got a power, but now Hiro thinks of him as competition(?) instead of a friend helping him on his quest, the whole bond between them in volume one is that Hiro is on a quest and Ando is his anchor, now it seems he is more of an annoyance.

I wish Claude was re-introduced during the later volumes, I'm a big fan of Chris Ecclestone, and I'd like to see more of him.

Killing Adam was a big mistake, I always found his cocky presence one of the good points in Heroes, I always enjoyed his presence on screen.

I wish they would just take Ali Larter away, I always cringe everytime I see her on screen. One of the main reasons I hated the third Resident Evil film was because I thought Ali Larter was a dry, soul-less actor who simply annoyed me everytime she was on screen. I wish they'd kill off Tracey, then get it over and done with and kill off Barbara too.

As much as I love Zach Quinto, I hope they keep him off for a long while and introduce someone else as the primary villain. Then nearer the end of the chapter, Sylar, having regained his conciousness, clashes with this new villain, then instead of a sterotypical good vs evil storyline, we've got a struggle to basically be the "main villain" of the series.

Also, why is Claire even still in it? She hasn't got anything to do except be saved all the time. Ironic that the girl who can't be hurt always needs to be saved - sigh.

Personally, I would like to see The Company make the full circle, and become basically what they were before, it's a bit boring, but I always like things like that.
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