The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[BillJ]

FarStrider wrote:

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The "tit grab" gave us (the audience) a reason that Uhura didn't like (or respect) Kirk for 99% of the movie. . .

But it's just redundant, as the lame pick-up attempt served the same purpose. Plus, how shallow is Uhura that she would hold something like that against him because it was clearly an accident in the middle of a bar fight?

Or did they think the audience weren't smart enough to pick that up because the characters we're using words instead of juvenile high school antics?

[FarStrider]

BillJ wrote:

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But it's just redundant, as the lame pick-up attempt served the same purpose. Plus, how shallow is Uhura that she would hold something like that against him because it was clearly an accident in the middle of a bar fight?

Or did they think the audience weren't smart enough to pick that up because the characters we're using words instead of juvenile high school antics?

You ever get a second chance to make a first impression. . .Uhura's first impression of Kirk were quite bad. . .He's drunk, he's hitting on her, he uses the "talented tongue" pick up line. . .but Uhura probably would have forgiven him for the accidental tit grab if he hadn't LEERED at her. . . it was only then that she pushed him back into the fight. . . as for the "high school antics" the characters are young . . Kirk and Uhura are 22, 21. . .people who are young do things like that. . .


~FS

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm not believing a word of this.

[Pauln6]

HAL.9000 wrote:

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1. Acting: outstanding (by some). Portrayals of Scotty, Chekhov, Sulu, Bones and Spock where right on.

2. Direction/Production/Special Effects: another win. We finally get to appreciate the internal size of the Enterprise among other things.

3. Character development: Sucked!!!

Romulans came across like greasy humans with pointy ears and tattooed faces. Didn't come across as another alien species at all.

Vulcans came across, again as just humans with pointy ears. Their stoic disposition compromised by subtle emotional attitudes and demeanor. However, Spock came across as more Vulcan than the pure-blood Vulcans...and he's half human. Maybe that was intentional...I dont know.

Gratuitous sex: a sign of an adolescent mind eager to prove "that there is nothing wrong with sex so I'll just show it to prove my point." I felt like I was watching a 1970s flick. A mature mind will say the same but also realize that sex has it's place in society and in film making as well. If it doesnt add to the film then it's just fapping material.

The whole Spock/Uhura love affair was just bizarre. Granted this movie is an alternate reality version of Star Trek (given you can have an old Spock and a young Spock living in the same universe together) but Spock and Uhura? C'mon guys. Next you'll be telling me Darth Vader built C-3PO.

Oh, wait...


Moving along...
Zaldana's portrayal of Uhura was lacking and unconvincing. She did not add to the dignified disposition nor the intellectual demeanor that Nichelle Nichols did to the character. The only thing they had in common was that they are both black, female, and wore 1960s min-skirts.

Kirk in bed with the green chick: Again, just gratuitous soft porn. The green chick came across as some cerebrally vacant white chick in green dye. Nothing more. If you are going to do this, make her exotic (you're getting it on with a freaking alien for crying out loud). Show us why Orion women are know as master's of seduction. Otherwise you just have a fetish for green skin. Shrek, never turn your back on Kirk, so Watch out!!

In short, this movie could have been renamed "Beverly Hills 90210 in Space."

Lastly: Kirk.

Boy I had trouble with his character. I know this is science fiction but as with all fiction, there has to be an element of reality to it, otherwise it's labeled "fantasy."

Since TOP GUN, we were led to beleive that rebels without a cause and those that buck against the system (especially in military like organizations) somehow win in the end for being, well...assholes.

It doesn't work that way in the real world.

Kirk came across as some punk kid that got extremely lucky and was advanced solely on the basis of that luck alone. Furthermore I failed to undertand how Spock, a Starfleet officer suddenly came under the command of this punk kid, or how Capt Pike decided to make him (Kirk) first officer in the first place.

I come from a military background so I have some concept of "chain of command." But this is fiction, so some logic was naturally thrown out the window to make the movie work, I guess.

I agree with some of your observations. I don't agree that Scotty was a good characterisation - too much of a buffoon for my tastes. I agree that Uhura's characterisation lacked the magnetism of the original although I did think Saldana's performance was fine. I didn't have a problem with the Spock/Uhura relationship personally, although I loathe the transporter scene where they were snogging while on duty. Replace the overt kiss with a brief bit of finger rubbing that doesn't escape Kirk's notice and I would be far happier. I liked Chekov but I would have been happier if they had used Rand to even up the women a bit more instead of rejiggering his age just so they could include him.

I was mightily annoyed at the massive and baffling power leap given to transporters. They're telling a 2-hour story and I can't believe there wasn't a better way to resolve that plot point than removing one of the best limiting factors on the technology (i.e. very limited range). Bonkers.

I agree that common sense was thrown out of the window once too often for the sake of expediency (stumbling across Spock in a cave - wtf) and I didn't like the fact that Kirk's attitude was considered to be a good thing. Let's not forget that his decision to pursue Nero before being sent to Delta Vega WAS WRONG and would have led to the Enterprise being destroyed. It was only after gaining additional information from Spock Prime about the Jellyfish that he was able to save the day and yet he is commended for his judgment - the same judgment that led him to decide to beam only two crewmen across to an enemy ship during their window of opportunity. If either one of them had been injured or killed (and Kirk was almost killed 3 times) that part of the mission would have failed.

I didn't have a major problem with the jokey sex scenes per se but I'm concerned that those scenes represented a large portion of the screen time given to any of the women (apart from the mothers). When the few women in the movie are primarily sex objects, moms, and girlfriends, they need to reconsider their 21st century sci fi credentials.

Overall the movie was a lot of fun but it was also quite dumb.

[CaptainStoner]

I watched this again for the first time since the theater run last week.
It holds up better than my memory of it - specifically, Nimoy's performance was better than I remembered - the strongest performance of the film IMO, although he has one hell of a home field advantage. : )

I still don't like some of the hamfisted plot elements, but Kirk's rapid advancement does make sense in its own emergency context. I don't think Kirk is being portrayed as a rebel. He is an archetype of a natural leader, which according to Pike, Starfleet was lacking.
To a general audience, I'd put this film just behind STIV.
Hopefully in the next film, the characters will "settle" in and be less caricatures of what came before. Although the telescoping katana was pretty cool.

[Qued]

Pauln6 wrote:

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I agree with some of your observations. I don't agree that Scotty was a good characterisation - too much of a buffoon for my tastes. I agree that Uhura's characterisation lacked the magnetism of the original although I did think Saldana's performance was fine. I didn't have a problem with the Spock/Uhura relationship personally, although I loathe the transporter scene where they were snogging while on duty. Replace the overt kiss with a brief bit of finger rubbing that doesn't escape Kirk's notice and I would be far happier. I liked Chekov but I would have been happier if they had used Rand to even up the women a bit more instead of rejiggering his age just so they could include him.

I was mightily annoyed at the massive and baffling power leap given to transporters. They're telling a 2-hour story and I can't believe there wasn't a better way to resolve that plot point than removing one of the best limiting factors on the technology (i.e. very limited range). Bonkers.

I agree that common sense was thrown out of the window once too often for the sake of expediency (stumbling across Spock in a cave - wtf) and I didn't like the fact that Kirk's attitude was considered to be a good thing. Let's not forget that his decision to pursue Nero before being sent to Delta Vega WAS WRONG and would have led to the Enterprise being destroyed. It was only after gaining additional information from Spock Prime about the Jellyfish that he was able to save the day and yet he is commended for his judgment - the same judgment that led him to decide to beam only two crewmen across to an enemy ship during their window of opportunity. If either one of them had been injured or killed (and Kirk was almost killed 3 times) that part of the mission would have failed.

I didn't have a major problem with the jokey sex scenes per se but I'm concerned that those scenes represented a large portion of the screen time given to any of the women (apart from the mothers). When the few women in the movie are primarily sex objects, moms, and girlfriends, they need to reconsider their 21st century sci fi credentials.

Overall the movie was a lot of fun but it was also quite dumb.

you guys said it all. thank you.

[Yevetha]

HAL.9000 wrote:

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Disclaimer: The following review is MY OPINION. Please dont get your panties in a bunch if you dont agree with it, nor feel I am starting trouble by expressing MY OPINION.

OK, I dont usually catch movies as soon as they come out and often wait for DVD releases. So I just got done with JJ Abram's rendition of Star Trek yesterday and...

I didn't really know what to make of it. I can sum it up like this: it's like finding a diamond in a pile of shit.

1. Acting: outstanding (by some). Portrayals of Scotty, Chekhov, Sulu, Bones and Spock where right on.

2. Direction/Production/Special Effects: another win. We finally get to appreciate the internal size of the Enterprise among other things.

3. Character development: Sucked!!!

Romulans came across like greasy humans with pointy ears and tattooed faces. Didn't come across as another alien species at all.

Vulcans came across, again as just humans with pointy ears. Their stoic disposition compromised by subtle emotional attitudes and demeanor. However, Spock came across as more Vulcan than the pure-blood Vulcans...and he's half human. Maybe that was intentional...I dont know.

Gratuitous sex: a sign of an adolescent mind eager to prove "that there is nothing wrong with sex so I'll just show it to prove my point." I felt like I was watching a 1970s flick. A mature mind will say the same but also realize that sex has it's place in society and in film making as well. If it doesnt add to the film then it's just fapping material.

The whole Spock/Uhura love affair was just bizarre. Granted this movie is an alternate reality version of Star Trek (given you can have an old Spock and a young Spock living in the same universe together) but Spock and Uhura? C'mon guys. Next you'll be telling me Darth Vader built C-3PO.

Oh, wait...


Moving along...
Zaldana's portrayal of Uhura was lacking and unconvincing. She did not add to the dignified disposition nor the intellectual demeanor that Nichelle Nichols did to the character. The only thing they had in common was that they are both black, female, and wore 1960s min-skirts.

Kirk in bed with the green chick: Again, just gratuitous soft porn. The green chick came across as some cerebrally vacant white chick in green dye. Nothing more. If you are going to do this, make her exotic (you're getting it on with a freaking alien for crying out loud). Show us why Orion women are know as master's of seduction. Otherwise you just have a fetish for green skin. Shrek, never turn your back on Kirk, so Watch out!!

In short, this movie could have been renamed "Beverly Hills 90210 in Space."

Lastly: Kirk.

Boy I had trouble with his character. I know this is science fiction but as with all fiction, there has to be an element of reality to it, otherwise it's labeled "fantasy."

Since TOP GUN, we were led to beleive that rebels without a cause and those that buck against the system (especially in military like organizations) somehow win in the end for being, well...assholes.

It doesn't work that way in the real world.

Kirk came across as some punk kid that got extremely lucky and was advanced solely on the basis of that luck alone. Furthermore I failed to undertand how Spock, a Starfleet officer suddenly came under the command of this punk kid, or how Capt Pike decided to make him (Kirk) first officer in the first place.

I come from a military background so I have some concept of "chain of command." But this is fiction, so some logic was naturally thrown out the window to make the movie work, I guess.

The Future:

From what I've picked up on line there will be sequels. One thing I read in particular kept focusing on the Pon Farr scenes between Spock and Uhura. Pon Farr is just a fancy term for Vulcan sex.

That alone turned me off so I doubt I will be catching any sequels. No doubt Abrams wants to push the edge, so dont be surprised if Sulu's character comes out as gay in honor of George Takei. When it comes to homosexuality in science fiction I always say there are two possibilities:

1. It has become universally accepted and it doesn't even draw attention.

or

2. It doesn't exist anymore because a cure has been found for it.

#2 always gets people chomping at the bit, but that's another topic altogether.

Overall, StarTrek 2009 would have been a great movie but it fell short IMO.

"
Since TOP GUN, we were led to beleive that rebels without a cause and those that buck against the system (especially in military like organizations) somehow win in the end for being, well...assholes.

It doesn't work that way in the real world."

I dont know, Hans Joachim Marseille got away with some really wild things in the 3. Reich.

[Set Harth]

HAL.9000 wrote:

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The whole Spock/Uhura love affair was just bizarre. Granted this movie is an alternate reality version of Star Trek (given you can have an old Spock and a young Spock living in the same universe together) but Spock and Uhura? C'mon guys.

The roots of Spock/Uhura are in TOS. The old ways are best.

[Anticitizen]

Set Harth wrote:

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The roots of Spock/Uhura are in TOS. The old ways are best.

Nah. There's one scene I can think of in which Uhura teases Spock for being a Vulcan by being flirtatious. I don't see that as any different than McCoy's prodding/attempts to break Spock's stoicism.

The real romantic 'roots' in TOS are between Spock and Nurse Chapel. And it's explicit.

And yet, it was expressly forbidden, due to his nature, which was ignored in this film.

[Anticitizen]

Holy double post batman!

[Pauln6]

Technically, the roots of the relationship are in TOS with Leila Kalomi, where Spock abandoned a relationship in his youth for his career. Chapel was just an extension of that decision and NuUhura is just this universe's Leila rather than this universe's Chapel. What's clear is that he was headed to do the same to NuUhura (already being nervous about the implications of their relationship in the movie). Whether the destruction of Vulcan and Amanda will change that arc is something the sequel will have to explore.

I'm more worried that NuKirk's risk taking habit has had no time to mature before being given command of a starship, coupled with his frightening belief in his own opinions to the point of not only ignoring advice but also the orders of superior officers. Interestingly, the writers have indicated that the speed of his promotion is something that they intend to explore based partly on fan commentary.

[FarStrider]

Anticitizen wrote:

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Nah. There's one scene I can think of in which Uhura teases Spock for being a Vulcan by being flirtatious. I don't see that as any different than McCoy's prodding/attempts to break Spock's stoicism.

The real romantic 'roots' in TOS are between Spock and Nurse Chapel. And it's explicit.

And yet, it was expressly forbidden, due to his nature, which was ignored in this film.

How is it "forbidden" due to his nature? Sarek loved and married 2 humans. . .

Chapel had a crush on Spock that he totally resisted. . .he's in the midst of Pon Farr (mate or die) and he throws soup at her? Dude, there was no there there. . . plus, Chapel's story is that she was searching for her fiance. . .and found him with the androids. . . and then suddenly she is in love with Spock. . . no wonder he didn't want her. . .

Seriously though. . .there are little hints that Spock and Uhura were at least attracted to each other throughout TOS. . .the "first inter-racial kiss" scene was originally intended for Spock and Uhura, and Shatner demanded that it be re-written for him. . . Spock says: "And Uhura, whose name means freedom. 'She walks in beauty like the night...' " You don't use one of the most romantic poems in the English language as a metaphor for someone unless there is an attraction there. . . plus he teaches her the kathyra (she asks him in a deleted scene from "Elaan of Troyius" http://www.startrekhistory.com/DS1.html) and we see her playing it in a later episode. Plus he's always the one who picks her up when the ship shakes. . .they ALWAYS had chemistry. . . and now. . .it's canon. . .

~FS

[Anticitizen]

FarStrider wrote:

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How is it "forbidden" due to his nature? Sarek loved and married 2 humans. . .

Not 'forbidden' in the sense that someone else was stopping him. More like, 'self-censored'.

Chapel had a crush on Spock that he totally resisted. . .he's in the midst of Pon Farr (mate or die) and he throws soup at her? Dude, there was no there there. . .

I wasn't even thinking of that episode... I was thinking of 'The Naked Time', actually.

[FarStrider]

Anticitizen wrote:

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Not 'forbidden' in the sense that someone else was stopping him. More like, 'self-censored'.

As Paul6 said earlier in the thread, even in the TOS Spock had at least one love affair (with Leila Kalomi) which, according to the episode, took place 6 years before the episode. Coincidentally, this would be about the same time that ST09 takes place. . . now here's the fun part. . . because the Enterprise launches later in ST09 than it did in TOS, Spock (and Pike) are teaching at the Academy instead of in the middle their 11 year mission, so Nu!Spock may not have even met Leila, but he meets Uhura at least 9-10 years before he does in TOS, at a time when he was open to relationships. . .so, there is no 'self-censoring' and no real contradiction with the TOS.

Anticitizen wrote:

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I wasn't even thinking of that episode... I was thinking of 'The Naked Time', actually.

The "Naked Time" only proves that Christine has feelings for Spock, and that he is sorry -- not because he doesn't have feelings, because his next scene obviously shows that he does (crying because he never told his mom that he loves her and all) -- that he does not (not can not) return her feelings, because he doesn't like her in the same way...the virus stripped him of his emotional control, if he had in any way, shape or form wanted Christine, he would have gone back to her (see the spores in "This Side of Paradise)...

~FS

[UFO]

FarStrider wrote:

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As Paul6 said earlier in the thread, even in the TOS Spock had at least one love affair (with Leila Kalomi) which, according to the episode, took place 6 years before the episode. Coincidentally, this would be about the same time that ST09 takes place. . . now here's the fun part. . . because the Enterprise launches later in ST09 than it did in TOS, Spock (and Pike) are teaching at the Academy instead of in the middle their 11 year mission, so Nu!Spock may not have even met Leila, but he meets Uhura at least 9-10 years before he does in TOS, at a time when he was open to relationships. . .so, there is no 'self-censoring' and no real contradiction with the TOS.

There doesn't appear to be any indication in "This Side of Paradise" to suggest that "... even in the TOS Spock had at least one love affair (with Leila Kalomi) ...". Certainly nothing of the sort that NuSpock and NuUhura have. If anything existed it seems to be completely one-sided at least in terms of displayed emotions. Indeed the evidence confirms that Spock's behaviour is no, or very little different, six years earlier, to what its is in TOS.