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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
Voters: 1126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 28 2009, 03:15 AM   #2416
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.
*shrug* If that's what rocks your boat, whatever. Me, I like most of the original timeline so I prefer to go with options (2) or (3).
Actually since since I have a choice in the matter (did not know that from most of the arguing going on) I'm going with 5) I really don't give a shit about the whole thing and wish the subject would die a quick and painful death and go back to enjoying the new movie and the still continuing book line.
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Old June 28 2009, 03:23 AM   #2417
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

number6 wrote: View Post
You are wrong. The new timeline was created by Nero's time travel. The movie takes place entirely in this new timeline. The old timeline still exists and is alive and well. It is not only clearly stated in the film, but it had been clearly stated by the writers.

If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.
Nope, you are wrong. And I did notice the plot point, in fact if you had read my review, you would have noticed me taking this bullshit down.

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.

You can have entirely different realities existing side by side, but that's a whole other matter. They are two different things. A reality has its own timeline that can be changed, yes changed, through time travel.

And if you had bothered to pay attention to the movie, you would have known, that Uhura names the term, "Alternate REALITY". NOT timeline. HOWEVER, Spock before that, is only talking about TIME having been changed, and it no longer being the same, therefor neither they nor Nero can know what will happen in the future. But a changed time/past/timeline does NOT equal an entirely different reality, an entirely different parallel universe.

The two are entirely different things, and Uhura's mentioning out of the terms, was done pulling it out of her ass. It is something completely different to what Spock was saying.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Or 4) The writers decided to use modern Quantum theory and in one case actually have Trek use accurate science in this one case shocking as that apparently is to some people.
Bullshit.

1. There is no such thing as a quantum theory on alternate realities as caused by time travel.

2. Spock did not describe a new reality splitting off from an original reality as caused by time travel, he was talking all about how the timeline got changed and it is now different - directly speaking AGAINST the time travel mechanism of creating alternate realities through time travel. Uhura then for no reason at all yanks the term "alternate reality" out of her ass.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Trent Roman wrote: View Post
[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.
Except that,

a. he set nothing up.

b. if he had set things up close to TOS, Kirk would be promoted to lieutenant and be on the Farragut, Checkov would still be in the academy (or not even in it yet), Uhura would be nowhere near the Enterprise, Pike would still be captain of the Enterprise, Sulu would not be on the Enterprise, neither would Scotty be, and CMO of the Enterprice would NOT be McCoy. Kirk wouldn't be the captain of the Enterprise for another 6 or 7 years.

Or in other words; if Spock did anything, he made it VERY FAR AWAY from TOS.

FailedLurker wrote: View Post
Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline.
I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.
Which would result in a timeline that got changed, and the timeline that came before to be GONE. It would NOT mean there's a new alternate reality created while the old reality continues on.

Last edited by 3D Master; June 28 2009 at 03:39 AM.
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Old June 28 2009, 03:29 AM   #2418
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

You know there is one simple way to end this debate once and for all that I can't believe everyone missed especially the canon fanatics. Since in a multiverse every possibility exists in a different universe there is a universe exactly like the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't sucked into the blackhole and did not go back in time, hell there are even universes where the supernova didn't occur or Spock stoped it from destroying Romulus, so problem solved as the Prime Universe still exists in some form.

Didn't think of that one did you.
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Old June 28 2009, 03:46 AM   #2419
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

3D Master wrote: View Post
Nope, you are wrong. And I did notice the plot point, in fact if you had read my review, you would have noticed me taking this bullshit down.

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.
Oh for goodness sake, how the hell do you - or anyone else - know actually how time travel works?

It's made up!

It's fiction!

This movie can make time travel do whatever the hell it wants.


I'm with Hartzilla2007, I couldn't care less how it works or what was created. I like the new movie, I like the old stuff, and hey guess what? I can enjoy them both at the same time.
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Old June 28 2009, 04:15 AM   #2420
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

The writers took inspiration from the TNG Episode "Parallels" and the theory of quantum mechanics... There are no absolute rules about time travel as it relates to Quantum Theory, just a bunch of opinions and until time travel is possible and people do it on a regular basis, who can really say that this movie did it right or wrong and what makes someone like 3D the arbiter of such things in the first place??

This film didn't do what every Trek series and film has done with respect to time travel: There is no reset button. The timeline of this alternate reality is altered, but not reset. That leaves the producers not only to carve a new path for these characters, but also to take familiar Trek concepts and turn them on their head.

I think that opens up some interesting possibilities for future films under this creative team.
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Old June 28 2009, 05:12 AM   #2421
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

trampledamage wrote: View Post
Oh for goodness sake, how the hell do you - or anyone else - know actually how time travel works?

It's made up!

It's fiction!

This movie can make time travel do whatever the hell it wants.
QFT.
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Old June 28 2009, 05:44 AM   #2422
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

3D Master wrote: View Post

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.
Wrong. It depends entirely on how the writers want the time travel mechanism to work.


See here.
2. Creating alternate (or divergent) timelinesDefinition: When you go back in time, you create a new timeline that is different from the one you remember, so everything you do in that new timeline will lead to an alternate future different from the one you came from.
Examples: TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise" (Lt. Yar goes back in time on the Enterprise-C to create a new timeline where the Federation was not at war with the Klingons), "Star Trek Generations" (the sun explodes, everyone on the Enterprise-D dies, and Picard enters the Nexus; with Kirk, Picard goes back in time and creates a new timeline where the sun does not explode, everyone on the Enterprise-D does not die, and Picard does not enter the Nexus) Voyager's "Timeless" (Old Chakotay sends a signal into the past to prevent the Voyager from crashing into an icy planet as he remembers), Voyager's "Endgame" (after returning to Earth after 20 years trapped in the Delta Quadrant, Admiral Janeway goes back in time and helps the Voyager get back to Earth immediately, allowing her younger self to be promoted to admiral 20 years earlier, as seen when Admiral Janeway at Starfleet Command calls Picard in "Star Trek: Nemesis"), "Terminator 2" (the T-101 goes back in time and breaks the causality loop that led to events in "Terminator 1," so that Cyberdyne could not use Terminator components to later invent Terminators), and "Terminator 3" (yes, this movie was listed under the Predestination Paradox for the T-101, but the T-X was creating an alternate timeline by going back and killing her future enemies when they were teen-agers), and "Primer" (where the time traveler wakes up early one morning, goes back in time to before he woke up, gives his sleeping self a sedative so that he doesn't wake up and get into the time maching, thereby creating a new timeline with two copies of himself, one a few hours older).
Comments: Like the causality loop, alternate-timeline stories are usually self-consistent, since the characters can do whatever they want in the new timeline, without any paradoxes, and with the further benefit that the time travelers do have free will, and need not be ignorant of their own past or be condemned to repeat it. However, once a time traveler creates a new timeline, he then often is stuck in that new timeline and can never get back to his original timeline.
Grandfather-Paradox test: If you go back to an alternate timeline, you are free to kill the man who would have been your grandfather in that timeline. Then he would be dead, and you'd be in a new timeline where another "you" will never be born. But it would not affect your own past.
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Old June 28 2009, 09:07 AM   #2423
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Regarding the time travel/alternate timeline:

Absolutely nothing in the movie suggests that its events are in an 'alternate' timeline that's co-existing alongside the 'prime' timeline. And absolutely nothing suggests that it's the same timeline that's been altered. We're not given indications either way, Uhura's wild guess notwithstanding.

Therefore, we must turn to other Trek for our interpretation of the events - previous time travel stories. Traditionally, in Trek, if you go back in time and change something, you alter the existing timeline you came from - not branch off into another timeline.

See 'Return to Yesterday', 'Yesterday's Enterprise,' 'City on the Edge of Forever', 'First Contact, whatever episode in which Data's head - from the past - is found (which means they went back in time to their OWN timeline)... etc etc etc.

Therefore I tend to lean toward the interpretation that the original timeline has been destroyed and does not exist.

It means, of course, that Spock Prime should be doing his damndest to fix the timeline, as he's been known to do in the past when time travel screws it up, but I'm sure that won't happen.
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Old June 28 2009, 09:07 AM   #2424
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Deleted...

Last edited by Anticitizen; June 28 2009 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Accidental double post. I blame time travel.
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Old June 28 2009, 01:29 PM   #2425
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Saw it for the third time in the theater last night. Just a couple new impressions to mention:

I LIKE this Kirk. I never liked Shatner's Kirk. This guy, I like. He makes me smile, whereas Shatner's Kirk just made me cringe.

I just caught the comment Scotty made about "Admiral Archer's prize beagle." That one kept me giggling off and on throughout the rest of the movie.
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Old June 28 2009, 03:18 PM   #2426
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know there is one simple way to end this debate once and for all that I can't believe everyone missed especially the canon fanatics. Since in a multiverse every possibility exists in a different universe there is a universe exactly like the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't sucked into the blackhole and did not go back in time, hell there are even universes where the supernova didn't occur or Spock stoped it from destroying Romulus, so problem solved as the Prime Universe still exists in some form.

Didn't think of that one did you.
Nope, I actually very much thought of that, and I'm pretty sure I wrote it down once, if not exactly like that, at least with a slight modification of that.

trampledamage wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Nope, you are wrong. And I did notice the plot point, in fact if you had read my review, you would have noticed me taking this bullshit down.

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.
Oh for goodness sake, how the hell do you - or anyone else - know actually how time travel works?

It's made up!

It's fiction!
Yes, and we would be talking about time travel works in this particular piece of fiction called STAR TREK. And I know how it works in Star Trek, because I've seen Star Trek, and watched all its time travel episodes and films.

This movie can make time travel do whatever the hell it wants.
No, it can't; there's precedent in earlier Star Trek shows and movies.

number6 wrote: View Post
The writers took inspiration from the TNG Episode "Parallels" and the theory of quantum mechanics...
Except that those alternate realities shown have absolutely NOTHING to do with time travel.

There are no absolute rules about time travel as it relates to Quantum Theory, just a bunch of opinions and until time travel is possible and people do it on a regular basis, who can really say that this movie did it right or wrong and what makes someone like 3D the arbiter of such things in the first place??
I'm not. Previous Star Trek shows and episodes are.

Ovation wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.
Wrong. It depends entirely on how the writers want the time travel mechanism to work.
Wrong, it is how previous Star Trek shows and movies have shown it to work.

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
Regarding the time travel/alternate timeline:

Absolutely nothing in the movie suggests that its events are in an 'alternate' timeline that's co-existing alongside the 'prime' timeline. And absolutely nothing suggests that it's the same timeline that's been altered. We're not given indications either way, Uhura's wild guess notwithstanding.

Therefore, we must turn to other Trek for our interpretation of the events - previous time travel stories. Traditionally, in Trek, if you go back in time and change something, you alter the existing timeline you came from - not branch off into another timeline.

See 'Return to Yesterday', 'Yesterday's Enterprise,' 'City on the Edge of Forever', 'First Contact, whatever episode in which Data's head - from the past - is found (which means they went back in time to their OWN timeline)... etc etc etc.

Therefore I tend to lean toward the interpretation that the original timeline has been destroyed and does not exist.

It means, of course, that Spock Prime should be doing his damndest to fix the timeline, as he's been known to do in the past when time travel screws it up, but I'm sure that won't happen.
Exactly.

The only thing you can say, is that the black hole didn't make them simply travel through time, but that they traveled into an alternate reality and then traveled back in time of that reality.

The fact that the past and the relations between the different empires are rather different (everyone seems to know what the Romulans look like, for example, and can identify their ships) would indicate that is what happened.

Well, actually, since both this past/present and the future that Spock/Nero come from use an entirely different stardate system as the Star Trek reality we've been following for the past 40 years, which is in fact an EARTHdate system, and not a stardate system, would indicate that even the future is an entirely different parallel universe.

Which of course, means we can toss the whole "travel into a different reality" out the window just as well. It's simply a time travel event within one reality that changed time, eradicating another time line, but occurring in a parallel universe to the one we've been following the past 40 years.
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Old June 28 2009, 03:26 PM   #2427
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

^^ Which is precisely why they decided to do it differently, using Quantum Theory in conjunction with time travel.. They are setting up an alternate reality in an earlier timeframe. It was stated in the film and was stated by the writers.

The writers also said they were inspired by the quantum mechanics of the TNG episode "Parallels."

They are doing it different from the previous Trek concepts of time travel.

The fact that they didn't reset everything the way previous Treks have done shows that, and opens up the possibilities for storytelling with these characters without necessarily re-telling stories we already know about these characters.

This creative team is in charge of Star Trek now. It's theirs to do what they want and as long as the films are successful and they are willing, they will continue to do so.
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Old June 28 2009, 05:04 PM   #2428
3D Master
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

number6 wrote: View Post
^^ Which is precisely why they decided to do it differently, using Quantum Theory in conjunction with time travel. They are setting up an alternate reality in an earlier timeframe. It was stated in the film and was stated by the writers.
Except that they didn't use any Quantum Theory, time travel in Star Trek doesn't cause new realities to be created, and it was NOT stated in the film. Quite the contrary, Spock states the opposite, he talks about a changed timeline, Uhura then just pulls the term "another reality" out of her ass which has got nothing to do with what Spock just said.

The writers also said they were inspired by the quantum mechanics of the TNG episode "Parallels."
Which has nothing to do with time travel at all.

They are doing it different from the previous Trek concepts of time travel.
Which is wrong.

The fact that they didn't reset everything the way previous Treks have done shows that, and opens up the possibilities for storytelling with these characters
There are plenty of storytelling possibilities with these characters without having to go into an alternate reality. Plenty of things left open in the original reality that were never told in episodes, movies, or books.

without necessarily re-telling stories we already know about these characters.
Then how come so many people on this board, who are so excited about "all the new possibilities" this alternate reality gives, are talking about redoing old stories?
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Old June 28 2009, 06:11 PM   #2429
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

3D Master wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
^^ Which is precisely why they decided to do it differently, using Quantum Theory in conjunction with time travel. They are setting up an alternate reality in an earlier timeframe. It was stated in the film and was stated by the writers.
Except that they didn't use any Quantum Theory, time travel in Star Trek doesn't cause new realities to be created, and it was NOT stated in the film. Quite the contrary, Spock states the opposite, he talks about a changed timeline, Uhura then just pulls the term "another reality" out of her ass which has got nothing to do with what Spock just said.
it has everything to do with what Spock just said. Uhura makes a reasoned deduction based on Spock's postulated theory.
The writers also said they were inspired by the quantum mechanics of the TNG episode "Parallels."
Which has nothing to do with time travel at all.
So?
They used the principles of quantum mechanics established in that episode to suggest that this is, in fact, a different timeline. That is what Spock suggests on the bridge and that is what the writers explained.
They are doing it different from the previous Trek concepts of time travel.
Which is wrong.
No it isn't. It is totally their perogative to explore this in their own way and there is no reason at all to be restricted to how it was handled before.
The fact that they didn't reset everything the way previous Treks have done shows that, and opens up the possibilities for storytelling with these characters
There are plenty of storytelling possibilities with these characters without having to go into an alternate reality. Plenty of things left open in the original reality that were never told in episodes, movies, or books.
I don't disagree with this at all, but I also don't see it as a bone of contention .

without necessarily re-telling stories we already know about these characters.
Then how come so many people on this board, who are so excited about "all the new possibilities" this alternate reality gives, are talking about redoing old stories?
Wishful thinking. I hope they don't redo old stories. We've had enough of that with all Trek series and movies. That being said..If they do choose to redo something, this alternate timeline may allow them to take a familiar Trek concept and turn it on its head. While that's not on my personal list of things I'd like to see, it could be interesting.
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Old June 28 2009, 06:36 PM   #2430
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

number6 wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
^^ Which is precisely why they decided to do it differently, using Quantum Theory in conjunction with time travel. They are setting up an alternate reality in an earlier timeframe. It was stated in the film and was stated by the writers.
Except that they didn't use any Quantum Theory, time travel in Star Trek doesn't cause new realities to be created, and it was NOT stated in the film. Quite the contrary, Spock states the opposite, he talks about a changed timeline, Uhura then just pulls the term "another reality" out of her ass which has got nothing to do with what Spock just said.
it has everything to do with what Spock just said. Uhura makes a reasoned deduction based on Spock's postulated theory.
No, she doesn't. She just pulls "alternate reality" out of her ass. All Spock does is not theorizing but stating the fact through Nero's actions time has changed. CHANGED. Not "split off into an other reality", he doesn't even come close to saying it.

So?
They used the principles of quantum mechanics established in that episode to suggest that this is, in fact, a different timeline. That is what Spock suggests on the bridge and that is what the writers explained.
First, you should notice the difference between a "different timeline" and a "different reality".

A "different reality" is a parallel universe.

A "different timeline" is simply a different chain of events.

A different reality as a timeline that is different than the timelines of realities next to it; however a different timeline does not automatically equal a different reality. Case in point, if time travel creates a new timeline by erasing an old one, we have a different timeline, but are still in the same reality.

Spock, indeed, is constantly talking about a CHANGE in time. Not a new reality split off from the original, but a timeline that is CHANGED, and as a result the old timeline is gone, otherwise there would be no change.

And once again, in that episode, the only thing that was established is that there are many parallel realities - none of this has got anything to do with time travel. Therefor, nothing in that episode was established that has any bearing on time travel. Time travel episodes have a bearing on time travel.

No it isn't. It is totally their perogative to explore this in their own way and there is no reason at all to be restricted to how it was handled before.
Yes, there is a reason to be restricted on how it was handled before; it's called building a coherent whole, and working with what came before. Some writer hired to write Batman doesn't suddenly get to turn him into a stone cold murderer, nor does he get to say that his parents are still around and never got killed, etc. etc.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I also don't see it as a bone of contention.
Then why did you say it "opened up possibilities" when according you those possibilities are already open?
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