RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,771
Posts: 5,434,210
Members: 24,840
Currently online: 599
Newest member: Reece101

TrekToday headlines

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

German Volkswagen Campaign Features Trek Actors
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Shatner And Nimoy In Trek 3?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

The Art of John Alvin Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
Voters: 1126. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 27 2009, 04:22 PM   #2401
Locutus of Bored
A Certain Point of View
 
Locutus of Bored's Avatar
 
Location: The Force
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

anthooz wrote: View Post
We must restore vulcan. Vulcan was at the core of Gene Roddenberry's vision.
www.restorevulcan.com

Together we can have an action film that also respects the vision of the past.

Live long and prosper

Anthony
It took me thirty years of fake counseling to finally get over the imaginary post-traumatic stress from the destruction of Alderaan, and now to have JJ Abrams conduct this ruthless assault on the heartland of our beloved fictional Federation... it's just too much for me to bear.

Keep fighting the good fight, sir. Though we may have suffered the illusion of being bloodied, our imaginary spirit remains unbroken.

__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Locutus of Bored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 04:48 PM   #2402
Australis
Writer
 
Australis's Avatar
 
Location: The Electric Age
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hmmmmmmmm, some more of that thinly veiled sarcasm, I think.
__________________
"… Times change, and so must I… we all change. When you think about it, we are all different people, all through our lives and that’s okay, that’s good! You've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be."
Australis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 04:57 PM   #2403
SalvorHardin
Rear Admiral
 
SalvorHardin's Avatar
 
Location: Star's End
View SalvorHardin's Twitter Profile
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]



__________________

SalvorHardin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 05:11 PM   #2404
indranee
Vice Admiral
 
indranee's Avatar
 
Location: Warrrrrrrrrshington, DC
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post


indranee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 05:12 PM   #2405
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Ovation wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Hell, I'll bet that they did the whole "alternate timeline" thing for the sole purpose of letting the fans know that they can go to sleep at night with the knowledge that their favorite universe is still intact somewhere. I'm fine with Amanda being dead, I'm fine with Vulcan being gone, i'm fine with two Spocks, and I would be ok if there was more major changes in the next movie. I nominate the Russian wizz-kid, Ensign Chirpov ( ) for the next casualty.
Except that they didn't do the whole "alternate reality" thing, they did indeed do an "alternate timeline" thing, aka, the old timeline is gone, destroyed, changed, now the alternate timeline exists;
Wrong.
Nope.

Wrong again.
Nope again.

This is what Spock described - a changed timeline, the old one being gone and destroyed.
And wrong yet again.
You should rewatch the movie and take note of what Spock's actually saying, because nope yet again.

Uhura then just pulls the term "alternate reality" out of her ass that has nothing to do with anything that Spock just said, and for some reason Spock just agrees with her.
He agrees with her because that is what happened.
Nope, once again. That did not happen. Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel
3D Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 05:40 PM   #2406
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

anthooz wrote: View Post
We must restore vulcan. Vulcan was at the core of Gene Roddenberry's vision.
www.restorevulcan.com

Together we can have an action film that also respects the vision of the past.

Live long and prosper

Anthony
Gene Roddenberry's vision also included love instructors, TOS as exaggerated propaganda, Kirk as a primitive human named after some guy his mom slept with years before his birth, Starfleet Command placing cybernetic implants in the brains of Starfleet captains, and as near as I can tell humans existing in some kind of psychicly connected orgy. Should Abrams being doing that as well?
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 06:45 PM   #2407
number6
Vice Admiral
 
Location: number6 has left the village through some inexpicable hole in the ground to head the corporation.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

3D Master wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post

Except that they didn't do the whole "alternate reality" thing, they did indeed do an "alternate timeline" thing, aka, the old timeline is gone, destroyed, changed, now the alternate timeline exists;
Wrong.
Nope.



Nope again.



You should rewatch the movie and take note of what Spock's actually saying, because nope yet again.

Uhura then just pulls the term "alternate reality" out of her ass that has nothing to do with anything that Spock just said, and for some reason Spock just agrees with her.
He agrees with her because that is what happened.
Nope, once again. That did not happen. Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel
You are wrong. The new timeline was created by Nero's time travel. The movie takes place entirely in this new timeline. The old timeline still exists and is alive and well. It is not only clearly stated in the film, but it had been clearly stated by the writers.

If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.
number6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:07 PM   #2408
Bob The Skutter
Service Droid
 
Bob The Skutter's Avatar
 
Location: Bob The Skutter
View Bob The Skutter's Twitter Profile
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

number6 wrote: View Post
If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.
As we've found in Buffy threads over and over, writer's intentions mean nothing to him, only what he took from it.

Personally I can't understand why people must see this as a problem. It's not like, even if the timeline was erased, all our memories and DVDs, etc. disappear with it.
__________________
And their call for war on poverty is a smokescreen we don't need, cos the only war worth fighting for is a war on their pure greed. : Acid Country - Paul Heaton
Bob The Skutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:30 PM   #2409
Trent Roman
Rear Admiral
 
Trent Roman's Avatar
 
Location: The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

3D Master wrote: View Post
Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel
3D Master is correct. Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline. As far as I can tell, there are basically three possibilities to resolving this, in order of least to most preferred (to me):

1) Nero and Spock were both sent back in time in the original timeline, which means previous events were suppressed, no matter what the hacks behind the movie say elsewhere;

2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;

3) Combination of (1) and (2): everything in the film takes place in an alternate reality, including the only sketchily described 24th-century portions; so while Spock and Nero do overwrite history, it was never 'our' Spock, 'our' Nero, nor 'our' history.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
__________________
Obdurants and Amusings - Behind the Shampoo Curtain
Trent Roman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:37 PM   #2410
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel
3D Master is correct. Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline. As far as I can tell, there are basically three possibilities to resolving this, in order of least to most preferred (to me):

1) Nero and Spock were both sent back in time in the original timeline, which means previous events were suppressed, no matter what the hacks behind the movie say elsewhere;

2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;

3) Combination of (1) and (2): everything in the film takes place in an alternate reality, including the only sketchily described 24th-century portions; so while Spock and Nero do overwrite history, it was never 'our' Spock, 'our' Nero, nor 'our' history.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Or 4) The writers decided to use modern Quantum theory and in one case actually have Trek use accurate science in this one case shocking as that apparently is to some people.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:38 PM   #2411
FailedLurker
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Bob The Skutter wrote: View Post
Personally I can't understand why people must see this as a problem. It's not like, even if the timeline was erased, all our memories and DVDs, etc. disappear with it.
A-freaking-men. Guess what folks: NEITHER timeline exists! Neither does the timeline where Dr. Sam Beckett awoke to find himself trapped in the past, nor the timeline where the taxation of trade routes to outlaying star systems was in dispute, nor the timeline where Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations, nor the timeline where a man named Brady was busy raising boys of his own. It's all fiction!

The only place any of this stuff exists is in our heads, and in the stories told about them. No new story is going to erase our heads, and no new story is going to erase the old stories. NuTrek doesn't erase OldTrek any more than NuBSG erased OldBSG, any more than Christian Bale Batman erased Michael Keaton Batman, any more than Michael Keaton Batman erased Adam West Batman, any more than Michael Bay Transformers erased any of the myriad other incarnations of Transformers. It's all still there to enjoy. Now go, be at peace, and enjoy whatever the hell Trek you want.
__________________
My brother once claimed DS9: Homefront was a "psycho-liberal fantasy." I said the real psycho-liberal fantasy was Paradise Lost, when the repressive terror-fueled government resigned in disgrace and the citizens regained their rights.
FailedLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:44 PM   #2412
Trent Roman
Rear Admiral
 
Trent Roman's Avatar
 
Location: The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
__________________
Obdurants and Amusings - Behind the Shampoo Curtain
Trent Roman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:51 PM   #2413
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 07:53 PM   #2414
FailedLurker
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline.
I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;
FWIW I basically agree with this interpretation. I think the differences shown were too fundamental to be only 25 years post-POD, not to mention differemces that preceded Nero's arrival.
__________________
My brother once claimed DS9: Homefront was a "psycho-liberal fantasy." I said the real psycho-liberal fantasy was Paradise Lost, when the repressive terror-fueled government resigned in disgrace and the citizens regained their rights.
FailedLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 27 2009, 08:11 PM   #2415
Trent Roman
Rear Admiral
 
Trent Roman's Avatar
 
Location: The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.
*shrug* If that's what rocks your boat, whatever. Me, I like most of the original timeline so I prefer to go with options (2) or (3).

FailedLurker wrote: View Post
I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.
That is something I'd considered. The Ent-E was caught in a chroniton wake or some such thing that shielded it from the effects of the timeline changing by the Borg. If Spock was past the black hole's event horizon when Nero's ship went through (which I consider highly likely considering that they appeared to go through within seconds of each other, whereas if Spock had originally been outside the event horizon he should have perceived Nero's ship as falling into the singularity for much longer), then he would have been caught in the black hole's area of time dilation, which nominally shields him from any exterior changes. In that respect, the time travel in both films could be comparable. The problem remains, however, that while the wormhole in FC sent both ships to the same location in terms of space/time, the black hole in Abrams' Product did not. In FC, changing the past overrode the timeline (which, as has been pointed out, is not the correct quantum concept, but the film in internally consistent on this point), so even though there were a few seconds' disparity between the Borg and the Ent-E going through, they wind up in the same place because there's only the one timeline. However, if one accepts the alternate timeline thing in the most recent film, then in the seconds between Nero's ship passing through and Spock's ship passing through the destination of the wormhole has suddenly changed, not just in terms of space and time, but reality as well--where before it only went to the past and somewhere near Federation space, now it would lead to a whole new continuum. Of course, one could just say that the black hole went to the same reality, but that would mean losing the original timeline since Spock emerged into a changed timeline, unless, as suggested, the destination or even the source were different realities to begin with.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
__________________
Obdurants and Amusings - Behind the Shampoo Curtain
Trent Roman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
grading & discussion, parallel star trek, vulcan

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:28 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.