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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
Voters: 1126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 26 2009, 10:09 AM   #2116
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
You're right. Strictly speaking, it is contrived. But it's awesome anyway.
Hell, no!


Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
It's one of those scenes, like Spock's conversation with Kirk during his death at the end of TWoK, that bears no resemblance to how people would behave in real life, but works because it's a distillation of an emotion presented directly and succinctly on-screeen.
Now that scene really works for me whereas the one on the Kelvin simply does not. I think one of the reasons is that I can accept that both characters are actually there at that moment whereas I still have big problems with this notions of having the family along for the ride the way Star Trek tends to depict it.

What makes it even worse for me is that I find most on-screen births, including the time leading up to the birth, to be nigh unwatchable. They tend to be overdramatized to the point of parody in my opinion. And this one is no exception in my opinion.

And in the last moments they start picking a name? Say what?!?

"Tiberius."
"No, that's terrible. Let's call him...Jim." Ugh!

That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .


Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.
No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .
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Old May 26 2009, 10:11 AM   #2117
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Australis wrote: View Post
Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.
Interesting. I suppose it's possible. However, my first thought was that it might be more of a North American vs. European thing, for example.
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Old May 26 2009, 11:12 AM   #2118
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Australis wrote: View Post
Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.
Possibly. I know since becoming a parent my emotional buttons are easier to push But in saying that I know a lot of non-parents who agree that it was the best part of the film.

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
And in the last moments they start picking a name? Say what?!?

"Tiberius."
"No, that's terrible. Let's call him...Jim." Ugh!
What else could they talk about? They could be depressed and misreble in the face of certain doom, or he could enjoy the last few moments of his life reminding himself why he's made the right decision.

Personally, in the very unlikely scenario that I have to save my daughter by piloting my own ship on a collision course into a Romulan Borgified supership... I'm pretty sure I'd make more jokes. But I'm a dick. I'd assume George wasn't.
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Old May 26 2009, 11:49 AM   #2119
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

^
I suppose I feel that conversation simply shouldn't have been happening in the first place. To me, personally, it just seems incredibly ridiculous. The valiant starship Captain riding himself and his ship to their deaths while making up names for his unborn son? Honestly, that just makes me cringe.

So had it been my choice, that scene wouldn't have been in there in the first place. However, if I was forced to include it for some reason, I think I'd probably have them talking about the simple fact that they're both afraid as well as bidding farewell to each other. There definitely would have to be a reference to the unborn child. But picking his name amid phaser fire, to me, just seems silly.

I think one of the problems I have is that the scene is so bent on trying to impress on us how Jim Kirk was literally born in battle. The desire to convey that idea goes so far that even his first name has to be picked IN BATTLE! That's how AMAZING the guy is - he's born in battle, and his name is chosen in battle!

IMHO that's just going way over the top without achieving any form of additional emotional payoff. For example, I think it would have been far, far more effective and a lot less laughable had they already chosen his name. That way, his father could have referenced the child by name instead of us having to go through a game of what's his name going to be...

Seriously, I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed the scene. I just can't possibly understand how it didn't make you want to leave the cinema .
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Old May 26 2009, 02:17 PM   #2120
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
^
I suppose I feel that conversation simply shouldn't have been happening in the first place. To me, personally, it just seems incredibly ridiculous. The valiant starship Captain riding himself and his ship to their deaths while making up names for his unborn son? Honestly, that just makes me cringe.

So had it been my choice, that scene wouldn't have been in there in the first place. However, if I was forced to include it for some reason, I think I'd probably have them talking about the simple fact that they're both afraid as well as bidding farewell to each other. There definitely would have to be a reference to the unborn child. But picking his name amid phaser fire, to me, just seems silly.

I think one of the problems I have is that the scene is so bent on trying to impress on us how Jim Kirk was literally born in battle. The desire to convey that idea goes so far that even his first name has to be picked IN BATTLE! That's how AMAZING the guy is - he's born in battle, and his name is chosen in battle!

IMHO that's just going way over the top without achieving any form of additional emotional payoff. For example, I think it would have been far, far more effective and a lot less laughable had they already chosen his name. That way, his father could have referenced the child by name instead of us having to go through a game of what's his name going to be...

Seriously, I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed the scene. I just can't possibly understand how it didn't make you want to leave the cinema .
Of course it's over the top (it's a sci-fi action movie, not a documentary about premature labour) but a few of the points you're picking at are not as unlikely as you think. Not having a name? When my son was born--A) we didn't know if he was a boy or girl prior to birth (our choice not to know) and B) my wife and I had narrowed down a list of names, but had not chosen one (and chose one that was not on our list once we saw and held him--and we did as they do in the movie, give our son both his grandfathers' names). Not having a name hinges on something you did not raise specifically, but has been raised by others (most of whom otherwise liked the scene)--why didn't they know it was a boy? Again, some people like the "reveal" at birth. Just because you CAN know something, doesn't mean you MUST know something.

When I was born, my mother was convinced she was going to have a daughter (and I'm old enough that there was no way to tell before birth). I went without a name for four days because she'd only picked a girl's name (and my father's choice for a boy had been taken by his brother for his son (my cousin--same last name). For these reasons, I, at any rate, had no trouble believing they didn't have a name ahead of time. And if I were in the unlikeliest of circumstances where I faced death moments after my child was born AND I was communicating with my wife while/shortly after she gave birth--my child's name would certainly be among my topics of conversation.
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Old May 26 2009, 02:59 PM   #2121
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Australis wrote: View Post
Ah, think I have an answer.

I'm willing to speculate that the people whjo didn't like the Kelvin sequence ar not parents. Not that you have to be a parent to like it, there are other beats in there too, but the whole parental thing could very well turn some people aside.
no, that's not it. otherwise I wouldn't be moved. I am not a parent.

I think it's about loss. deep, unutterable loss. if you've experienced it or at least have come close to it, you feel this scene more deeply than do the ones who haven't.

it's very important that we don't judge each other in terms of how we all feel toward this scene. we will all feel loss in our lives, at some point. some already have (like yours truly), some haven't... yet.

the scene is not about nobility or even sacrifice, really. it's about pain, unmitigated pain. something you can't do anything about. something that makes you cringe a bit inside to even think of facing. in the end, it's all up to our individual experiences in how we digest a scene like this.
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Old May 26 2009, 03:00 PM   #2122
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
You're right. Strictly speaking, it is contrived. But it's awesome anyway.
Hell, no!


Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
It's one of those scenes, like Spock's conversation with Kirk during his death at the end of TWoK, that bears no resemblance to how people would behave in real life, but works because it's a distillation of an emotion presented directly and succinctly on-screeen.
Now that scene really works for me whereas the one on the Kelvin simply does not. I think one of the reasons is that I can accept that both characters are actually there at that moment whereas I still have big problems with this notions of having the family along for the ride the way Star Trek tends to depict it.

What makes it even worse for me is that I find most on-screen births, including the time leading up to the birth, to be nigh unwatchable. They tend to be overdramatized to the point of parody in my opinion. And this one is no exception in my opinion.

And in the last moments they start picking a name? Say what?!?

"Tiberius."
"No, that's terrible. Let's call him...Jim." Ugh!

That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .


Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.
No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .
Jim Kirk's mother was not "family on the ship". she was a Starfleet officer posted to the Kelvin.
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Old May 26 2009, 03:13 PM   #2123
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?
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Old May 26 2009, 03:16 PM   #2124
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

nowhere in the movie. it's either in the novelization or somewhere else. I'll find it for you and post again. but, I know for a fact that she wasn't "family". there were no families in Pre-Picard times in Trek.

also, if you check, there are no other "families" on the Kelvin, either. she was the only one having a baby.
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Old May 26 2009, 03:27 PM   #2125
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Winona being in Starfleet would also explain why she was off-world when Jim drove his dad's antique car into the quarry. I doubt she'd have willingly left her sons alone with their uncle (or stepfather, whichever they decide to make canon).
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Old May 26 2009, 03:48 PM   #2126
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?
When Kirk is running off with the car, the uncle threatens him about misbehaving when his mom is offworld. While it's not explicitly stated, you could probably make a safe bet that it's something along the lines of being an officer or just a general crew member.
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Old May 26 2009, 05:59 PM   #2127
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .
Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.


Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.
No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .
Meh. You're still wrong. In my opinion. Fortunately, your love of nuBSG will protect you in the coming purge.
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Old May 26 2009, 05:59 PM   #2128
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

indranee wrote: View Post
nowhere in the movie. it's either in the novelization or somewhere else. I'll find it for you and post again.
No need to, thank you. I was simply wondering whether or not I had missed some detail in the film.

indranee wrote: View Post
but, I know for a fact that she wasn't "family". there were no families in Pre-Picard times in Trek.
I certainly remember that from TOS. But I'd consider this a reboot. So basically, everything's possible.

indranee wrote: View Post
also, if you check, there are no other "families" on the Kelvin, either. she was the only one having a baby.
If I were to be very nitpicky, I would say there were none that we saw . But I suppose it's fair enough to assume she was a pregnant crew member (whether it's wise to have your child in space is another question, I suppose).

Skywalker wrote: View Post
Winona being in Starfleet would also explain why she was off-world when Jim drove his dad's antique car into the quarry. I doubt she'd have willingly left her sons alone with their uncle (or stepfather, whichever they decide to make canon).
Unless they were such troublemakers that she wouldn't have them along .

archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
^
Interesting. When is that stated in the film?
When Kirk is running off with the car, the uncle threatens him about misbehaving when his mom is offworld. While it's not explicitly stated, you could probably make a safe bet that it's something along the lines of being an officer or just a general crew member.
Hmm, that's quite a lot to infer from just that line, I think. Looking at the events aboard the Kelvin, I think it's just as easy to imagine that she quit Starfleet (going along with the assumption that she was a member of Kelvin's crew) after her husband's death and is offworld for some other reason.


I suppose in the end it comes down to a communications issue, if you will. I saw the movie (I'd read very, very little about it beforehand) and thought, oh no, they've got families on board again. I didn't think she was a member of the crew or, at least, a member of Starfleet.
Maybe that's just me. But that's how I read those scenes.
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Old May 26 2009, 06:01 PM   #2129
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
That entire part of the scene just made me cringe throughout. It's actually interesting coming here to the forum and realizing that most people liked it contrary to myself and my friends. It's one of those instances where you're convinced that everyone must feel the same way, but you suddenly find yourself in the minoriy .
Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.



Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
And, speaking as someone dissapointed in Trek XI, it was the best scene in the movie.
No. Just...no. No, no, no. In my opinion, anyway .
Meh. You're still wrong. In my opinion. Fortunately, your love of nuBSG will protect you in the coming purge.
I knew it would prove useful in the future .
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Old May 26 2009, 06:25 PM   #2130
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
Welcome to my experience with the entirety of Star Trek XI.
At least we can laugh about it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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