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Old October 20 2009, 02:03 AM   #406
Patrickivan
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Re: Control Spaces in the Warp Nacelles

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post



Very nice. I've always said here that TOS Enterprise is a BIG ship, but that one little door says it all to me.

To all those who thought this ship wasn't big enough, they need only to come here.

Cheers!
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Old October 21 2009, 03:31 AM   #407
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Control Spaces in the Warp Nacelles

Patrickivan wrote: View Post
Very nice. I've always said here that TOS Enterprise is a BIG ship, but that one little door says it all to me.

To all those who thought this ship wasn't big enough, they need only to come here.

Cheers!
Thanks, Patrick!

I'm probably going to do a quick "just like in TAS" render at some point to relate the interior of the nacelle to the shot from TAS, for comparitive purposes. In case you're curious, that door is 2m tall and 1m wide... typical for an "in your house" door, in other words.

I've made some more progress tonight. I've completed the intercoolers (at least the external portions... but still need to do some "internal plumbing" associated with them) and ALMOST completed the control reactors (which lack the axial ribbing right now... and will also have "internal" portions which I haven't added yet, tying them into the stuff I've been putting into the nacelle.

I still haven't put the "proto-TMP" coils in, nor the antimatter generator rig (though I've got both entirely "designed in my head" already). And I think I'll put a little bit more detail into the control spaces... not counting the portion of the control reactor which occupies those spaces, I mean.

Externally, the nacelles still require the top-front running lamps, the red-outlined underside hatch, and the "darker color" region (which I really ought to have added earlier... I'm going to have to roll back the model in order to do that properly!)

But the externals are virtually complete now, and there's not a tremendous amount left for the internals, so shortly, I'll be returning to laying out the internals of the secondary hull (likely starting with either the landing bay or main engineering). Just like with the nacelles, I have the majority of the secondary hull innards laid out in my mind's eye already, with just a little bit of tweaking which will probably happen during construction.

The primary hull is less "firm" in terms of how it'll be laid out, though. Once I've finished up the secondary hull, I'll need to do some number-crunching to work out the crew distribution... size and type of cabins, etc. I'm not really inclined to be very slavish to FJ's "crew complement listings." But the 430 number is something I plan to stick with.

Anyway, here's tonight's update:
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Old October 23 2009, 07:14 AM   #408
Cary L. Brown
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Semi-populated Cross-Section View

Despite no posts, work has proceeded. The nacelles are further along now. I haven't put the running lamps on yet, and the coils and antimatter generator are still missing, but everything else is in place now.

Instead of tossing up another "stepwise render" I thought I'd throw out something a bit different. This is, in fact, a sheet which I hope to have be part of my eventual "blueprint set" based upon my layout.

FYI, the "undercut" was another big concern for why I abandoned the early 947' approach. As you can see here, a 11.25% reduction (which is what we're talking about if going down from my 1067' version to the 947' version) means you can't have full "onscreen deck height" even over one deck in that region.

Enjoy!

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Old October 23 2009, 10:35 AM   #409
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

That line drawing feels slightly reminiscent of that callout from “Day of the Dove”, something about the dorsal structure I think. Good stuff!
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Old October 24 2009, 12:59 AM   #410
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Continued oustanding work, Cary. I love the line diagram, and if I may backtrack a bit, I like your thinking on how the ramscoop might work.
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Old October 24 2009, 02:04 AM   #411
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Praetor wrote: View Post
I like your thinking on how the ramscoop might work.
TBH, I've heard that theory tossed around from time to time. I actually think Ed Whitefire used that when he made the 1701-D blueprints.
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Old October 24 2009, 07:01 PM   #412
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Scareship Mariner wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
I like your thinking on how the ramscoop might work.
TBH, I've heard that theory tossed around from time to time. I actually think Ed Whitefire used that when he made the 1701-D blueprints.
Just out of curiosity... what does "TBH" mean?
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Old October 24 2009, 07:07 PM   #413
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

^ "To be honest," methinks.
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Old October 24 2009, 10:35 PM   #414
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
^ "To be honest," methinks.
Correct.
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Old October 25 2009, 12:51 AM   #415
Cary L. Brown
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Nearly-finished Nacelles

Here are the Nacelles, largely completed. There are still a few minor tweaks to be done, but the major elements are all in place now. Here's the external view (with the walls still transparent of course). Note, I'm not going to put in all the internal stringers, ribs and so forth which would be present as well... and none of the cabling, piping, etc... suffice it to say that there's more in the "real" nacelle than you see here. This is the major element only.



You'll note the "field stabilizing coils" are now in place... these are energized subspace field coils, but they're there to shape and control the primary field, not actually generating the primary field itself. (I assume that the modifications made by the Kelvins were largely centered upon manipulation of the fields generated by these... the end result of which was that in a couple of years, the Kelvin warp drive advances were implemented in the TMP-era nacelles, and then later refined into the TNG-era nacelles... which were then dramatically altered to be more like the TMP-era nacelles again after they discovered that they were tearing up space/time during TNG).

On the outboard face of the nacelle, you can see the accelerator loop which is the most central part of the antimatter generator subsystem. I'm treating this as a very energy-intensive process, but less so than the energy released by the reaction of a similar amount of antimatter... I tend to say that it's ~10% of the total reaction output which is required to regenerate antimatter. During heavy power-draw operations, or when collectable matter is hard to come by, there is an antimatter storage facility in the aft portion of the nacelle (a vertical cylinder just forward of the aft field generator sphere subsystem). The basic subsystem method is to separate matter down to the "quark" level, through the use of the big accelerator loop you see there, and expose that to some sort of "magic field" which causes a small portion of those quarks to flip their spin... at which point the nature of the field causes that "flipped matter" to fall out of the main circuit and be directed to the containment chamber I already mentioned.

You'll notice that the "plumbing channels" which run under the intercoolers now extend all the way to the end of the field generator sphere shroud. The idea is that there are multiple "prisms" along the length of this channel which direct the energy output of the top two supplementary reactor outputs into the field generator sphere. This would normally cause the field to distort "downwards" (causing the ship to nose up) but by "cooling" the flow through those channels (by diverting the flow through the intercoolers to various extents) you can keep the ship straight-and-level, or of you dramatically cool it, you can nose down. Obviously, it's easiest to "nose up" a bit, thus explaining why the Enterprise tends to bank into turns.

Here, now, is a lateral cross-section of the nacelle. You can best see the nature of the "field stabilizer coils" in this view.



Finally, a top-down section. This shows what's still missing internally (mainly elements relating to the control reactor loop, which is currently not actually connected to anything, but which is going to be linked directly into the central core). The aft antimatter storage facility needs a bit of work still, too.



The most notable element here are the two (per nacelle) inward-facing subspace projector elements... the inwards-facing "nacelle grills" are just the outer face of these elements. I've been thinking about how you'd keep the ship from ripping itself apart if the two nacelles weren't working perfectly in tandem. Think about it... what would happen if one nacelle was putting out WF4.10000 and the other was putting out WF4.10001... the ship would be torn apart.

What you really need is a way to "merge" the two fields. So that any energy imbalance between the two fields is rendered moot, because both are putting their energy into a common, merged field. That's what these elements do... they generate a linked subspace field between the two nacelles, which is then... umm... well, "wetted" by the propulsive field. The idea is that if one field is actually more powerful than the other one, the surplus flows across this subspace-energy bridge to the other nacelle. You have a "control reactor" in between one set, and that device basically controls the energy field of that set... directing slightly more or less energy to that nacelle, in a controlled and safe manner. This allows "warp turns" without tearing one or the other nacelle from the ship.

And this is why "nacelles need ~75% line-of-sight visibility to each other"... so that they can ensure that they can "link" their fields without subjecting the crew to the potential hazardous effects of an instantaneous "balancing flow" of subspace energy between nacelles if something goes wrong.

Interestingly, this also plays well into the idea that the reason that the Tritium class was a failure was the complexity of balancing the fields of three nacelles. Having a single unidirectional flow, as you have with two nacelles of this nature, is (relatively) easy to control... but if you have three nacelles, the easy-balancing bit suddenly becomes very complicated, and you could (in theory) end up with a "loop flow" going around between the three nacelles (sort of like a "ground loop" in an electrical circuit).

Well, that's it for today, I think. Hope you enjoy it!
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Old October 25 2009, 12:58 AM   #416
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

I haven't been closely following the technical aspects of the nacelle interiors -- adding callouts to your images would make your text descriptions more understandable -- but what you've done certainly looks cool! Keep up the good work!
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Old October 25 2009, 01:08 AM   #417
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
I haven't been closely following the technical aspects of the nacelle interiors -- adding callouts to your images would make your text descriptions more understandable -- but what you've done certainly looks cool! Keep up the good work!
Well, eventually I'm going to have drawings with labels and the whole deal... but right now I just need to get everything THERE. Once the design work is done, then I'll get the labeled drawings completed.
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Old October 25 2009, 05:56 AM   #418
Albertese
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Dang, bro. I want a full scale technical manual. You could totally do it.

--Alex
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Old October 25 2009, 04:23 PM   #419
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Another take on the Original Enterprise...

Well, this is swweeeettt...

For the past decade or so, I've always run in 32-bit, like most folks. Some of you know that I upgraded recently and I'm now running a multi-boot system, with my "work" being done on a 64-bit XP installation.

You've seen some of my "nice" renders, in the past. I've done these with a program called NuGraf which is directly linked into Pro/ENGINEER (my CAD software) and does some really nice rendering.

However, those renders typically took multiples of minutes to generate... four or five, on average. Not TOO painful, but still a bit long to seriously consider animation.

Well, on my new system, each of the following renders (imported at the maximum possible accuracy level, and rendered using a single light source) took approximately 2.5 seconds to render. Now, with multiple light sources this will be slowed by a fair amount (and a proper render will have dozens of light sources). But, this basically means that the idea of animation creation is really practical for me now, at "CAD-quality" model levels. I may start playing with that sometime soon.

In the meantime, here are some images to whet your appetite.

(These are the Imageshack "click the thumbnail to see a small view, which you then click again to see full-sized" things... I'd prefer the thumbnail to automatically take you to the full-size image, but that's not what they do. The actual images are 1920 x 1080.)





EDIT: My first pass didn't take into account angle accuracy (you can see some tesselation in the nacelles, especially near the aft end). That's one of those things you tend to forget when it's been more than a year since you set things up last time, I suppose, huh?

Here's another render, focusing on the aft end of the nacelles, with this fixed. The render time for this image was longer... about 30 seconds. Still, pretty painless when the same thing used to take six minutes or so.



Now, to put the nacelle interior "sets" into perspective, here's a "normal" camera shot from just inside the inspection catwalk door, facing aft. Lighting here is by a string of point lights spaced every few meters, with a very slight ambient light to infer bounce.



Here's a slighly wide-angle shot from the aft end of the nacelle, facing forward. Remember that the outside walls are still transparent... that's why you see black for the interior of the nacelle hulls here.


And finally, a couple of shots from within the "shuttle operations observation dome" above the landing bay. The first is facing towards the primary hull... (this is still "wide-angle")



And another looking up towards the port nacelle (this is no longer wide-angle)


Last edited by Cary L. Brown; October 25 2009 at 05:39 PM.
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Old October 25 2009, 06:56 PM   #420
Cary L. Brown
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What if Abrams hadn't decided to toss out the TOS Enterprise design?

These are not "movie quality" renders, but are provided to give a general impression of what the shots from the ST-09 trailer would have looked like had the TOS design been used.

I'm assuming that the trailer would have been the same one we saw, except for the specifics of the ship itself. So, the initial "welder" shot would have been the same, as would all of the voiceover clips, music and so forth.

The first shot we saw was of the top of the nacelle. Here's what that would have looked like with a TOS-style nacelle. (Again, I'm still "transparent-skinned" so you can ignore that aspect and assume that you'd see, instead, some areas where the skin wasn't there yet).


Next, we saw a guy doing welding work, suspended from a harness/scaffold of some sort, on the inside of the port pylon. Here's where that shot would have been with the TOS ship.


Next, we saw a downwards shot of another guy doing work at the edge of the primary hull. I thought about where that shot would work best with the TOS ship, and I decided that this would've been the best place for that shot... the true fan can tell what's being looked at, but the casual observer would have no idea. Especially if the "L-hatch" was off, revealing the impulse engine workings underneath...


Finally, the final "sweep up" gave us the first reveal of the ship. Here's what that shot would have looked like with the TOS ship.


Now, obviously, you'd have the ship in a partial state of construction... you'd see the slight motion of "fan blades" inside the nacelle domes, etc, just like in the trailer. I'm only trying to show what the "TOS-ish" shots would have looked like in the most general of terms.
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