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Old April 15 2009, 01:42 AM   #1
chrisspringob
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Location: North Ryde, NSW
If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

I brought this up in another thread recently, but I was wondering what other people thought about it:

In "Jughead", we learn that the US military had come to the Island in 1954 for nuke tests. (This is actually based on real history....the US did do nuclear bomb testing on several small Pacific islands in 1954.) My mind keeps going back to this.....what do you make of the fact that they went to this particular island for the tests? I mean, they wouldn't have just been wandering around the ocean, looking for potential targets, and then stumbled across this island and said "Hey, let's do it here."

They would have started by...you know...looking at a *map*. And picking an island that they know about. So does this mean that the Island was actually visible to the outside world back in 1954, and its location was known? Or does it mean that the Island was still hidden back then, but that the US government knew about its existence and tracked it down via the lamppost or something, and their mission there went beyond simply testing the nuke? Maybe they knew there was something dangerous on the Island, so they wanted to nuke it, before it became a danger to the outside world...and the idea that they were just trying to "test" the bomb was a cover story.
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Old April 15 2009, 02:03 AM   #2
Gertch
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

chrisspringob wrote: View Post
(This is actually based on real history....the US did do nuclear bomb testing on several small Pacific islands in 1954.)
Well duh, we've all seen Godzilla.





In the Lamp Post station there was a picture of the Island taken by the Military (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1468-98.html) so they obviously scoped out the Island even before bringing the bomb. I say that because the image made it back to the mainland and we saw that most if not all of the soldiers were killed.

Of course they could have put a party ashore with the bomb and left them there to get the device ready. It's all guesswork unless they decide to tell us.
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Old April 15 2009, 02:41 AM   #3
chrisspringob
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Location: North Ryde, NSW
Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

Gertch wrote: View Post
In the Lamp Post station there was a picture of the Island taken by the Military (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1468-98.html) so they obviously scoped out the Island even before bringing the bomb. I say that because the image made it back to the mainland and we saw that most if not all of the soldiers were killed.
Interesting. How well mapped out was the Pacific Ocean as of 1954? If the military *hadn't* known about the Island beforehand, and just stumbled across it, is it at all plausible that they would have said "Oh look, we found an island. But that's to be expected, as we can't keep track of every piece of rock that sticks up above the ocean's surface." Or is the island big enough, that they inevitably would have said "WTF? How could this place have remained unknown for this long?"

Last edited by chrisspringob; April 15 2009 at 03:35 AM.
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Old April 15 2009, 03:10 AM   #4
Gertch
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

From what I can remember there are numerous islands in the pacific that are not charted (I remember an account in the 70's where a Japanese WW2 soldier was found on an island). This could have simply been another island they bumped into.

If they left by ship they would have used the special heading by accident.
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Old April 15 2009, 04:37 AM   #5
chrisspringob
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

Gertch wrote: View Post
From what I can remember there are numerous islands in the pacific that are not charted (I remember an account in the 70's where a Japanese WW2 soldier was found on an island). This could have simply been another island they bumped into.

If they left by ship they would have used the special heading by accident.
Yeah....but thinking through how this would have worked, I'm not sure that tracks. Realistically, they would have made more than one trip to the Island. I mean, OK, the navy might have stumbled across the Island by mistake. But it's not like they would have been wandering the seas with the nuke in tow.

If they stumbled across the Island, they would have sent word back to HQ, saying "Hey, here's a good test site for the bomb". Then they would have thoroughly searched the Island to make sure there were no islanders living there, and then (weeks? months?) later, sent the nuke there for the testing.

So I think the only way it works is if either the Island wasn't hidden back then, and anyone could come and go with no problem, *or* it was hidden, the US knew the Island was special and they knew how to find it, and they specifically took the nuke there for some reason that hasn't yet been revealed (possibly to wipe the Island out if they thought it posed some kind of threat).

Or else the writers just didn't think through the logistics of it in this kind of detail, and it's a plot hole.
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Old April 15 2009, 04:53 AM   #6
Super Grover
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

Gertch wrote: View Post
From what I can remember there are numerous islands in the pacific that are not charted (I remember an account in the 70's where a Japanese WW2 soldier was found on an island). This could have simply been another island they bumped into.
I was thinking, with all the stuff that crashed on the island over the years. I"m a little dissapointed that they never stumbled on some old WWII relics.
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Old April 15 2009, 07:28 AM   #7
Mallet
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

It could be that the ship came across the island on there way to a different location and then got stuck in the "snow globe" effect, unable to get away from it. Then if the crew started getting sick, like what happened to the freighter crew, they might have abandoned ship, taking the nuke with them, and landed on the island. Where they encountered the Hostiles. The ship itself could have hit a reef after they abandoned it, or been scuttled on purpose, and sank off the coast of the island. It could also be that the ship was under radio silence at first (since they were carrying a nuke) and then before they realized the need to radio for help it was to late.

As for the images in the lamppost station, those could have been taken from the soldiers who landed on the island. We know Eloise was there when the soldiers were and maybe at that time the Hostiles took everything away from the soldiers they killed.
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Old April 15 2009, 07:53 AM   #8
chrisspringob
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Location: North Ryde, NSW
Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

Mallet wrote: View Post
It could be that the ship came across the island on there way to a different location and then got stuck in the "snow globe" effect, unable to get away from it. Then if the crew started getting sick, like what happened to the freighter crew, they might have abandoned ship, taking the nuke with them, and landed on the island. Where they encountered the Hostiles. The ship itself could have hit a reef after they abandoned it, or been scuttled on purpose, and sank off the coast of the island. It could also be that the ship was under radio silence at first (since they were carrying a nuke) and then before they realized the need to radio for help it was to late.

As for the images in the lamppost station, those could have been taken from the soldiers who landed on the island. We know Eloise was there when the soldiers were and maybe at that time the Hostiles took everything away from the soldiers they killed.
Actually.....yeah, that could work. That's a possibility. Of course, the obvious followup question with all of these scenarios is....what did the US do after that ship went missing, along with the nuke? When they investigated, did they ever uncover anything, or did they just search for it for a while, and then swept it under the rug when they couldn't figure out what happened?

Did the government know anything about what Dharma was up to, for example?
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Old April 15 2009, 03:18 PM   #9
Mr Light
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

"I was thinking, with all the stuff that crashed on the island over the years. I"m a little dissapointed that they never stumbled on some old WWII relics." In the S2 ep where Mr. Friendly tells Jack about not crossing the line, he holds a WWII pistol to Kate's head. Also, wasn't the knife that Ana-Lucia found on Goodwin in "Other 48 Days" a WWII era one or something?
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Old April 15 2009, 05:55 PM   #10
McCoy
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

chrisspringob wrote: View Post
Of course, the obvious followup question with all of these scenarios is....what did the US do after that ship went missing, along with the nuke? When they investigated, did they ever uncover anything, or did they just search for it for a while, and then swept it under the rug when they couldn't figure out what happened?

Did the government know anything about what Dharma was up to, for example?
Maybe whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island (and so vacated the position) in order to avoid that US govt investigation.

Edited to add: Maybe that's why an imperfect leader like Widmore came to power. Because they had to react to an imminent threat and didn't have time to choose a suitable replacement.
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Old April 15 2009, 06:40 PM   #11
Gertch
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

chrisspringob wrote: View Post
Gertch wrote: View Post
From what I can remember there are numerous islands in the pacific that are not charted (I remember an account in the 70's where a Japanese WW2 soldier was found on an island). This could have simply been another island they bumped into.

If they left by ship they would have used the special heading by accident.
Yeah....but thinking through how this would have worked, I'm not sure that tracks. Realistically, they would have made more than one trip to the Island.
It doesn't really make sense. You would expect multiple visits to make sure of the site. I was just trying to keep within what we know about the Island and have seen onscreen.
I doubt they are going to help us out with this point since we only have a about 20 episodes left.
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Old April 16 2009, 05:37 PM   #12
propita
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Location: fresno, ca, us
Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

McCoy wrote:
Maybe whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island (and so vacated the position) in order to avoid that US govt investigation.
I musta missed that part. Where was it said that Widmore moved it?

Who's moved it besides Ben and when, that we know of? (Locke only fixed it--I guess when Ben moved it, something broke)
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Old April 17 2009, 03:53 AM   #13
McCoy
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

propita wrote: View Post
McCoy wrote:
Maybe whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island (and so vacated the position) in order to avoid that US govt investigation.
I musta missed that part. Where was it said that Widmore moved it?

Who's moved it besides Ben and when, that we know of? (Locke only fixed it--I guess when Ben moved it, something broke)
Wow, what the hell am I smokin'? I musta completely made that stuff up there. By the way, we haven't heard how Ellie left the island yet have we?
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Old April 17 2009, 04:18 AM   #14
chrisspringob
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Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

McCoy wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
McCoy wrote:
Maybe whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island (and so vacated the position) in order to avoid that US govt investigation.
I musta missed that part. Where was it said that Widmore moved it?

Who's moved it besides Ben and when, that we know of? (Locke only fixed it--I guess when Ben moved it, something broke)
Wow, what the hell am I smokin'? I musta completely made that stuff up there.
I thought propita just misinterpreted your sentence. You presumably meant "whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island", not "whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island". In this hypothetical, Widmore never moved the island. It was the guy who was leader of the Others back in 1954 who would have moved it.
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Old April 17 2009, 05:34 PM   #15
Mallet
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Location: Vancouver
Re: If the US military was testing....(Jughead SPOILERS)

chrisspringob wrote: View Post
McCoy wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post

I musta missed that part. Where was it said that Widmore moved it?

Who's moved it besides Ben and when, that we know of? (Locke only fixed it--I guess when Ben moved it, something broke)
Wow, what the hell am I smokin'? I musta completely made that stuff up there.
I thought propita just misinterpreted your sentence. You presumably meant "whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island", not "whoever was leader before Widmore moved the island". In this hypothetical, Widmore never moved the island. It was the guy who was leader of the Others back in 1954 who would have moved it.
Or it might have been Eloise.
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