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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 18 2011, 08:47 AM   #1291
Tulaberry whine
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Sykonee wrote: View Post
This could have been the Reverse Inquisition! Heck, this could have even been DS9's take on Intersections In Real Time!!!! (that hour-long interrogation B5 episode)
An interesting idea. Bashir, O'Brien, Sloan, some handcuffs, a chair and a ceiling light, that's all this episode needed. Bashir gets obsessed, O'Brien brings him back from the brink. It would be a throwback to Hippocratic Oath, but this time Bashir would be interrogating someone rather than working on a cure.
The idea of Bashir obsessively interrogating Sloan would be particularly interesting given his lecturing of Ross at the end of Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.

Anyways, Extreme Measures is up there with Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night and Convenant as a huuuuuuge bungle of a great idea.
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Old February 20 2011, 08:58 PM   #1292
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 31: (Ending 05.30.99)
DS9 - The Dogs Of War (Airdate 05.26.99)
VOY - Equinox, Part 1 (Airdate 05.26.99)

DS9 definitely improved this week, but it unfortunately gets bogged down by its B and C plots. The Ferengi stuff is understandable - I guess they deserved some closure after all this time. Oddly enough, I nearly forgot about all of those characters during this Final Arc. Seeing a Quark-centered story feels totally out of leftfield since he hasn't had much to do with the Dominion War, Bajoran religion, and shadowy Black Ops. Quark is Quark, and will always remain Quark, even as everything else around him radically changes. Seems about right. Bashir and Ezri? Eh, I guess they needed to tie up that loose end before the finale.

Yeah, the Kira-Garak-Damar plot is where the goods be, and it's nearly enough to take the week. But VOY did something that it hasn't managed in God knows how long: it made me care.

Right off the bat, the feeling is that Equinox isn't going to be a regular Action Fun Time episode of VOY. The desperate paranoia of the anti-Voyager crew is chilling, yet sympathetic at the same time. It in turn makes Janeway's Holier-Than-Thou stance towards Ransom rather deplorable, especially considering how often she's, er, "bent" the PD in her time. Or... was it the writers' intent to make Janeway a shade of gray here? Hmm...

Bottom line is that Equinox gives something different from the norm, and I'm quite curious to see how it's resolved, putting it in leagues DS9 and B5 continuously dominated for so many seasons. It's really a tie this week, but VOY shines a little more thanks to this.

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Last edited by Sykonee; February 21 2011 at 09:47 AM.
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Old February 20 2011, 09:45 PM   #1293
Jeff O'Connor
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Wow. A late delivery from the Delta Quadrant. Well played, Voyager. I never thought your crew subscribed to the 'now or never' mentality, what with all the meandering and such, but you did it. You beat DS9 at the 11:59th.
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Old February 20 2011, 09:47 PM   #1294
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

In other news, I remember this night (and of course the next) like they were just yesterday. All I could think about for weeks was DS9. I was pleasantly surprised with the Voyager finale but at this point my mind was on the station and little else.

Well, that and the girl in my science class.
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Old February 20 2011, 10:11 PM   #1295
Pemmer Harge
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Whoa! I was actually shocked when I saw Equinox. Shocked that Voyager could do an episode like this so well. I know some people don't like this and think Janeway's out of character or whatever (did she have consistent characterization in the first place?), but I think it's really, really good. The discovery of the Equinox was such a bombshell that I initially thought it must be some sort of illusion created by a spatial anomaly or something (hey, this show has conditioned me to think like that!). The premise of another ship showing how Voyager's own journey might have gone in slightly different circumstances was executed really well - my favourite part was Gilmore explaining how she just got on with things and avoided thinking about what they were doing. This is excellent and for the record, I very much liked the second part as well - especially Captain Ransom's way of escaping from reality. I do wish we'd seen the Equinox survivors again, but that's not a problem with this episode per se.

The Dogs of War can't quite compete with all that, but it's still a good episode, certainly better than the last one. The Kira/Damar stuff is again strong and the Ferengi story, though ridiculous, is fairly entertaining. I must say I enjoyed Quark's send up of Picard's rant from First Contact a lot better than I did the original scene. It's one of those "set up the big climax" episodes we now know so well from B5 and DS9 - Favor the Bold, The Long Night, Between the Darkness and the Light etc. and I think on those terms it does a good job.
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Old February 23 2011, 09:22 PM   #1296
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 32: (Ending 06.06.99)
DS9 - What You Leave Behind (Airdate 06.02.99)

What? DS9 gets to swan-song all by itself? TNG didn't that get luxury, nor did B5. True, VOY always ends its season before DS9 does, but B5 could have sent its understudy to compete this week. Crusade is set to debut this month (next week, in fact). Man, that DS9, getting all the lucky breaks, huh. It had four whole weeks to establish itself (VOY only had its premiere week, B5 nothin'), hogged Junes, holds the record for highest single Trek episode rating (Emissary), got the better writers from TNG... man, what a lucky show. Well, except for that whole 'lack of cultural impact' like all the other Trek shows, but still!

Anyhow, we're finally at the end of all things. The war is wrapped up (ergh, don't reuse such iconic 'ships getting blowed up' shots tho'!), almost all the major villains end up dead, and people move on with their lives while the main lead disappears into a flash of light. The way it all gradually winds down from the mid-episode climax, it's like a condensed version of B5's final string of episodes. Not that this is a bad thing, just apparent. Both shows built up quite the history during their runs, and the only way to do the characters justice is to give them reflective moments as they move on.

(Okay, I'll gripe about the resolution between Sisko and Dukat: with so much going on, it unfortunately felt tagged on. There, moving on...)

One of the things that always makes me want to immediately throw on Emissary after watching What You Leave Behind is when Sisko gives his toast to his crew at Vic's. Think about how different this show, these characters, and even this environment has become since he first walked onto a broken-down hostile station. Seeing the two side-by-side, then recalling all that happened in between (the montages really helps) makes you appreciate what a journey the past seven years has been.

And yes, I always get misty-eyed at the final pullout of the station. Perhaps not as beautifully poetic as some of the scenes in Sleeping In Light, but definitely right up there with any of Trek's best parting shots.

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Old February 23 2011, 09:38 PM   #1297
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I love the finale so much.
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Old February 23 2011, 10:23 PM   #1298
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient



The finale has problems, but the final shot was perfect. Every time I see it I'm reminded that no matter how many times I rewatch the DVDs, there will never be a new episode of DS9. It's over, and it has been for some time.
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Old February 23 2011, 10:25 PM   #1299
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

There's almost nothing in all the finale I dislike, personally. I know it's not a common opinion to state that WYLB is damn near perfection incarnate, but upon my recent rewatch I really, truly felt that way.

The Sisko/Dukat confrontation, the most commonly-cited issue with the episode, almost took off a couple of notches for me and the lack of Jadzia in the montage was the other thing that got me. But I'd still give it like a 9.6... seriously.
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Old February 23 2011, 10:53 PM   #1300
Pemmer Harge
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Yeah, it's a good ending. Not the best episode in the Final Chapter and the Pah-Wraiths plotline wasn't nearly as good as the war plot, but still, it does the job it had to do pretty well. The climactic scenes of the Dominion War were appropriately exciting and the scenes afterwards letting us say goodbye to the characters, as it were, worked nicely (shame about the lack of Jadzia, of course).

I liked All Good Things... and Sleeping in Light better than this, but it was nonetheless a pretty dignified way to go out. Certainly far superior to the two Trek finales that came after it.

So there it was, the golden age of Neo Trek - 1989 - 1999.
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Old February 23 2011, 10:54 PM   #1301
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

1989-1999
I completely concur.
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Old February 23 2011, 11:51 PM   #1302
Damask
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

That final shot of DS9 is perfect. Just closed the book completely on the true Trek novel.
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Old February 24 2011, 03:38 PM   #1303
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I love What You Leave Behind. It's true that Sisko vs Dukat was underwhelming, as was a certain lack of Jadzia, and a reuse of battle footage from Sacrifice of Angels.

Screw that though - by the time the final shot of the station rolls around, I'm a gibbering wreck. The rest of the episode does so much right by giving all our characters a great sendoff.
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Old February 24 2011, 04:05 PM   #1304
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

It offers far and away the most cast closure of all the series. TOS and its sixth film do a novel job and TNG's "All Good Things" is none too shabby, either, but this one just feels totally right to me.

Doesn't hurt that I feel a lot more closely-connected to them than I do with the others.
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Old February 24 2011, 04:36 PM   #1305
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I think that All Good Things is the better finale, that episode captured everything that was great about TNG and it only has one flaw; a logical error concerning anti-time in the future timeline. What You Leave Behind is a great finale too, and when it is good it is better than anything in AGT, but when it was bad it was weaker than anything in AGT and those weaknesses hurt it.

Still, I come back to that final shot. Both shows have similar final shots and I love both of them, but DS9's is better not only on a technical level, but also in that it it's a throwback to The Visitor. WYLB's is also more emotional because AGT's has the Enterprise flying away into the sunset, but in WYLB it feels like you are being torn away from the station, this place that you have come to love. That moment surpasses anything in AGT... but I still think AGT is the better episode.
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