DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[happydave]

VOY also taught me that if I want my problems solved I just have to wait for the Dues Ex Machina to come in at the final minute. If only life was that simple.

[Sykonee]

Well, I'm back, and lo', nearly every team I care about has been kicked from the Playoffs (still, go Suns/Celtics!). I guess I have time to crack open those S6 DS9 DVDs now.

Week 5: (Ending 10.05.97)
DS9 - A Time To Stand (Airdate 09.29.97)
VOY - Revulsion (Airdate 10.01.97)

And boom! DS9 picks things up right where we left off. Meaning, if the show had a slowly building dread about things as S5 closed up, it just keeps the pressure on with the opener here. We have no quick fixes, as it should be. Our heroes get a few minor victories in this episode of course, but they seem to come at a cost. That's war for you though. It also goes a long way to show how much we're invested in these characters now, that watching them so hopelessly backed into a corner can create some truly gut-wrenching drama.

VOY wasn't much to get fussed about. Harry getting butt-hurt over another babe? Well, at least there weren't evil holograms to fight this ti- ah, dang it. Revulsion seems to work best when it's about character rather than plot, which unfortunately isn't for the whole episode. DS9 thumps it soundly this week.

B5's coming back next week though, so we'll see if it can hold strong against that show's drive to its season finale. So long as there aren't anymore experimental episodes going on, it should be entertaining.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Rocks And Shoals
VOY - The Raven
B5 - Between The Darkness And The Light

[Pemmer Harge]

A Time to Stand is actually a bit underrated I think. It tends to be overshadowed by the next episode for some reason. Anyway, this is really good - I love how different everything is now. Kira working for Dukat? Cool! This stretch of Season 6 has to be the most ambitious stuff DS9 ever did. I still don't believe Rom's a spy for Starfleet though.

[Sykonee]

Week 6: (Ending 10.12.97)
DS9 - Rocks And Shoals (Airdate 10.06.97)
VOY - The Raven (Airdate 10.08.97)
B5 - Between The Darkness And The Light (Airdate 10.09.97)

Someone over at VOY must have realized they'd yet to give their new character an episode all to herself. "But wait, she's been in every single b-story-" AN EPISODE ALL TO HERSELF! Raven's kind of annoying though, in that the crew is made to look like a bunch of idiots again. Then, as the story seems to indicate we're going to get a meaty backstory for Seven, we're left with nothing but a cursory look instead, leaving us to ponder the rest for ourselves. Man, what a cocktease. ...er, of an episode.

Really though, this week's all about whether DS9 can maintain the momentum its gained with its War Arc, and if the returning B5 can retake some of that thunder with its own continuing War Arc. Unfortunately, B5 falls victim to its need to move plot.

Not to say it wasn't another solid Plot Episode, because it was. Yet the key 'emotional' scene fell flat. We're supposed to feel the loss of Ivonava (well, almost loss - I guess we'll see if there's a sci-fi miracle cure next week, or they're just prolonging her agony for some dramatic reason), yet I felt more of a sense of tragic loss with the Jem'Hadar - and they're the bad guys! Faceless Shadow-Destroyers didn't make for nearly as compelling an adversary as the slimey Keevan. And B5 lacked any kind of crushing soul-searching character moment the kind that Kira had this week. Not to mention Sheriden's jailbreak seemed way too easy (even for TV).

Hey, there were some cool things regarding B5 anyway: Black Eye Lyta's hella' wicked! It just doesn't stick with you the same way R&S does, no where near it. DS9 takes the week. With B5 looking to gear up for the Final Showdown next week, however, it's going to take quite a bit on Trek's part to match that - B5 always comes up big with their Major Event episodes. VOY knows this, wisely stepping aside for now while these two duke things out.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Sons And Daughters
B5 - Endgame

[Damask]

Sons and Daughters doesn't have a hope against Endgame. Though it is the weakest of the Dominion Occupation arc eps.

[Eyes]

I thought Rocks and Shoals would win. As a fairly average character episode, The Raven can't hold a candle to this.

Rocks and Shoals is easily the best episode of the Occupation Arc. As always, for B5, I haven't a clue, but your assessment of it seems good enough.

Next week, I have a feeling that if you describe the next B5 as a final showdown, it'll easily trump Sons & Daughters, the weak link in the Occupation Arc.

[Kai Winn]

i expected nothing less than a win of the overshadowing, epic 'rocks and shoals'. my opinion on it, it's quite boring, nonsensical, and the stage of the silliest infantry skirmish in the history of moving pictures, with some jem hadar stumbling stiffly across the land to get themselves killed. nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys? what happened to the personal cloaking devices of the jem hadar? exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

[DevilEyes]

Kai Winn wrote:

---

nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys?

[TheGodBen]

The Raven is good, but Rocks and Shoals is a classic, probably the best episode in the occupation arc.

You know, if things keep going at this rate I might overtake you in watching B5 and I'll finally be able to read all your posts! And I'll be able to criticise you for making all the wrong calls!

Kai Winn wrote:

---

nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys?

Sisko didn't have a supply of ketracel white, his ship sank in the sea, remember? When escaping a sinking ship his first thought wasn't to rescue the supply of a drug he had absolutely no need for. You also neglect the fact that Sisko didn't know when, or even if, they were going to be rescued. So even if Sisko did have a supply of White to give them, it would just run out again in two weeks and he would have lost his chance to kill them and save his crew.

exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

Seriously, you don't get that? That was at the core of the episode, if you don't understand that point then you clearly weren't paying attention.

[Bones]

Kai Winn wrote:

---

i expected nothing less than a win of the overshadowing, epic 'rocks and shoals'. my opinion on it, it's quite boring, nonsensical, and the stage of the silliest infantry skirmish in the history of moving pictures, with some jem hadar stumbling stiffly across the land to get themselves killed. nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys? what happened to the personal cloaking devices of the jem hadar? exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

You really are having none of it, are you?

Personally, I like seeing vocal support for Voyager compared to DS9. It can't just be Anwar.

[flemm]

USS Bones wrote:

---

Personally, I like seeing vocal support for Voyager compared to DS9. It can't just be Anwar.

Yeah, a lot of people are vocal in their dislike for Voyager, so it's only fair that DS9 take its share of lumps as well.

At the end of the day Voyager is still going to suck and DS9 is still going to be awesome, of course, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for disagreement

[Kai Winn]

TheGodBen wrote:

---

Seriously, you don't get that? That was at the core of the episode, if you don't understand that point then you clearly weren't paying attention.

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.
'the raven' is probably the poorest epsiode in a very good voayger season, but there's a silver lining. 1.kes is gone. 2.the depiction of the b'omar, and the preposterous course they plotted for voyager trough their space. there are dozend of countries like this on earth, but this sort of race in outer space is obviously rare.

[TheGodBen]

Kai Winn wrote:

---

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.

I didn't think much of it myself when I first saw it on TV, I didn't think it was bad it just didn't stand out. But when I rewatched it on DVD it stood out as a great episode, and my impression of it has only improved with time.

The point was that the Jem'Hadar couldn't rebel because they were genetically engineered to follow orders, and while some Jem'Hadar are able to break their programming, these Jem'Hadar were not. Third Remata'Klan merely questioned orders at one point and he felt great shame for it. To the Jem'Hadar, betraying orders is almost as unthinkable as killing children is to us; it's not right, it goes against the very fibre of their being, it's immoral. For them, when choosing between betraying their orders or death, death was the preferred option.

[Eyes]

Kai Winn wrote:

---

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.
'the raven' is probably the poorest epsiode in a very good voayger season, but there's a silver lining. 1.kes is gone. 2.the depiction of the b'omar, and the preposterous course they plotted for voyager trough their space. there are dozend of countries like this on earth, but this sort of race in outer space is obviously rare.

Rocks and Shoals? Boring? Those two words don't go together in the same sentence. It's one of the most involving and interesting episodes I've watched.

You know what bored me? Every single Seven episode I've ever watched, except for maybe Prey and Drone. And that's going all the way up to the middle of the fifth season.

And what's this silver lining that Kes is gone? Some of us think she was a very interesting character, in several ways a lot more interesting than Seven and in terms of raw character potential, better than all male characters on Voyager aside from the Doctor.

Have to agree with you on the B'omar, that was the only part of the episode I even paid attention to.

[flemm]

TheGodBen wrote:

---

The point was that the Jem'Hadar couldn't rebel because they were genetically engineered to follow orders, and while some Jem'Hadar are able to break their programming, these Jem'Hadar were not.

Trek writers have a tendency to leap straight to the exception before the rule is established, to go for the gimmick before the premise is fully explored. Another example of this is in DS9 is Defiant, where the station's new warship is hijacked by the Maquis before it has been used more than a few times by the regular crew.

The Jem'Hadar actually fall prey to this twice, in Hippocratic Oath and, to lesser degree, in To The Death. Rocks and Shoals is important for re-establishing the Jem'Hadar as loyal soldiers, but beyond that it just works really well from a dramatic point of view because of good performances, especially by Brooks and whoever plays the Vorta.