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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 22 2010, 01:13 AM   #721
TheGodBen
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
However, once we learned that Odo was deeply in love with Kira, there was no going back IMO. Making characters fall in and out of love just like that would have really cheapened them. It's not just some crush we're talking about, this was portrayed as something very deep and strong on Odo's part. If it was someone else, say Bashir, it wouldn't be hard to buy, but I can't see Odo as someone who has short-lived crushes that come and go all the time.
I don't think they intended it to mean that Odo no longer loved Kira, but that he loved her enough to let her go. By the end of Crossfire Odo had come to peace with that fact that he was never going to be with her and accepted that she was happy with Shakar, so he swallowed up his feelings and got on with his life. It doesn't mean he wasn't in love with her any more, you could actually argue that it was just the opposite. It might not be realistic, I know that I'd be completely unable to bottle my feelings up like that (sadly, from personal experience), but Odo is a man of greater character than I.

Then again, the dead Cardassian vole from Playing God was a man of greater character than I.

So, while Kira was with Shakar the writers didn't do anything with the relationship and thought they had closed the book on the whole episode. Then they had the concept for Children of Time and realised that the potential for drama was too great to not bring back the Kira/Odo romance, so they unceremoniously dropped the Kira/Shakar relationship off-screen so that Odo's emotions could resurface.
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Old March 22 2010, 03:57 AM   #722
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 18: (Ending 02.09.97)
DS9 - For The Uniform (Airdate 02.03.97)
VOY - Blood Fever (Airdate 02.05.97)
B5 - Into The Fire (Airdate 02.06.97)

Wow, was this ever weird to watch all in a row. Three good, entertaining episodes that have absolutely nothing in common with each other. There's no way I can judge them in comparison. They're all of their own little world, and I'm not talking about being different series.

Let's get B5 out of the way, since it's the winner anyways. Yep, this is it! The BIG FINALE! Or, wait... That's all it took to end the conflict? Really? Geez, you build up our anticipation for this epic final confrontation, yet it felt rather flat, at least as far as B5's space battles go. It just didn't feel as involved as Severed Dreams or Shadow Dancing. I suppose there does come a point when there are too many ships on screen.

But yes, the war was ultimately about ideology, and you're not going to win a war of ideology with weapons. Some have said The Lecture was a disappointing resolution to the war but I honestly can't see it resolving any other way. Sheridan was right: the cycle had to be stopped and the only way for it to stop was for the Vorlons and Shadows to stop meddling in the affairs of the younger races; for a new age to dawn. I find it a very satisfying conclusion to the Shadow War, and the fact it's wrapped up at the beginning of Feb Sweeps makes us wonder where the show can go from here. You just know there's gotta be something great in store with so much of the season left.

DS9 and VOY were pretty good too, though for different reasons. Actually, VOY could have been really bad were it not for some great acting on Dawson's and Enberg's part. Okay, so the plot reminds me somewhat of hentai anime (no, not the tentacle stuff -the more 'benign' "you must have sex with the girl to save her" type ...er, not that I watch that stuff ), but it's entertaining anyways. Plus, I rather liked these Aliens Of The Week (wow, they were reasonably cooperative for a change!) and a bombshell of finding a Borg corpse. Oh... shit?

I liked DS9 for Brooks' over-the-top anger. I think this was about the point I really started to warm up to him as an actor; he always seems to be at his best when all sulky and brooding. As for his villainous acts, I'm not overly fussed over it like others are. He did what he felt was necessary to get Eddington, taking it to extreme measures. I think it's a good development for him, as we've already seen him willing to bend rules for what he feels is a greater good. It makes you wonder just how far he'd be willing to go. ()

Anyhow, it's going to be interesting to see how B5 follows this week up, now that it appears its major arc has concluded. Might this be an opportunity for DS9 and VOY to get something going of their own?

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - In Purgatory's Shadow
VOY - Unity
B5 - Epiphanies
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Old March 22 2010, 07:34 PM   #723
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Wow, OK, so this is a big week! I'm aware that not everyone likes Into the Fire, and I can understand that, but personally I like it a lot. The A-plot works for me because it follows logically from what's come before and it it pulls together various plot points and revelations from previous episodes and uses them to resolve the problem. It also shoots for a vaguely mythic feel and pulls it off rather well. I really enjoyed this stuff, but the B-plot on Centauri Prime was, if anything, even better. Londo shows some devilish flair and Vir getting his wish is quite a moment, but there's a lot of emotion to it as well.

So that was the Shadow War. It could have been improved by being a bit longer and having maybe one or two more big action episodes, but in the end the episode quality was generally high and overall I was satisfied. It was a good story, albeit not the whole story!

So yeah, I pick B5 as the winner here, but For the Uniform is a bit of a classic as well. Sisko's obsession with catching Eddington was really interesting and the episode was handled with real flair. Bonus points for a Star Trek episode referring to a work of literature that isn't Moby Dick! OK, it pretty much glosses over the questionable morality of Sisko's actions, but it's so entertaining that I don't really mind.
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Old March 24 2010, 09:24 AM   #724
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 19: (Ending 02.16.97)
DS9 - In Purgatory's Shadow (Airdate 02.10.97)
VOY - Unity (Airdate 02.12.97)
B5 - Epiphanies (Airdate 02.13.97)

Damn! Another solid week of sci-fi TV. We're getting spoiled this Feb Sweeps. I wonder if these shows will be able to keep it up?

You really have to wonder if DS9 was keeping an eye out on what B5 was up to here. B5 goes and wraps up its MAJOR Event Episode the previous week, and now DS9 drops its own Event Episode here. Actually, IP'sS isn't really that big of an Event Episode, but rather more of a Character Episode featuring Garak with all the Big Events occurring in the B-Plot. And hoo, what a B-Plot! Is this it? Is this where we finally get to witness "the coming war with the Dominion" Sisko hinted at back in Rapture? Tune in next week!

VOY, meanwhile, manages to ride the franchise's recent success with the feature-film Borg and turn in an intriguing look at a colony of ex-Borgs and how they're surviving. This is quite clever on VOY's part, in that it gives us a fresh Borg storyline. These folk seem harmless enough, yet when they becoming linked together, there's a chilling tone in that collective voice. Never before has the phrase, "Our lasting gratitude" sounded so... menacing. And hey, it's nice to see Chuckles get to do something productive for a change.

And B5 doesn't waste any time in keeping plot arcs moving along. They barely have a chance to enjoy their victory over the Shadows when the shit starts to hit the fan again. It's a much quieter episode than anything since the premiere but with Garibaldi resigning (wha'?), Bester selling out his own Squadron (w..wha'!??), and apparently these "Agents Of Darkness" already setting plans in motion (oh man...), it definitely appears the show will continue to have things to keep tuned into. After all, isn't the aftermath of a major war where the real work begins?

Still, with DS9 looking like it's going to get its hands dirty with its own major war next week, how can the impeccable set-up of this week not win?

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - By Inferno's Flame
VOY - Darkling
B5 - The Illusion Of Truth
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Old March 24 2010, 07:34 PM   #725
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I believe I've given B5 9 consecutive wins in Vs weeks, but this time DS9 wins big. In Purgatory's Shadow is just superb, clearly one of the best episodes of the whole series. It builds to an amazing cliffhanger and I'd say seeing the Dominion fleet come through the wormhole has to be one of the show's most memorable moments. The true greatness of it however, is the brilliant character stuff that so many people get, especially Garak, but also Ziyal, Dukat, Kira... It's some of the best writing I've seen on DS9 and I'll go out on a limb and say that it's the best single episode of any two-parter on the show.

Babylon 5's not going to beat that this time, but Epiphanies is a really strong way to follow the conclusion of a major story arc. It walks the line nicely between showing the aftermath of the previous arc and moving things forward. There are some good character moments here too, and Walter Koenig spices things up as always. Definitely does a good job at showing that B5 is far from over.
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Old March 24 2010, 09:38 PM   #726
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I missed the end of the Shadow War! Oh well, B5's run of dominance for me, comes to and end this week. Epiphanies is a strong episode, but it's quieter than what we've been used to for a few episodes now. It's also getting new stories off to a start, which is a somewhat slow process.

Unity is a VOY episode that I really enjoy, part of the reason being that it gives Chak something to do. It introduces the Borg in the Delta Quadrant in a way we're not used to, and I missed this different approach later on in the series.

In Purgatory's Shadow is a damn fine DS9 bona fide classic. It takes all of the political strings generated over the past seasons, and gracefully weaves them into a maginificent plot. The character work on top of all of that is top notch - my favourite stuff being with Garak. I like how, in almost a semi-sequal to Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast, he gets some closure with Tain. Dukat, Kira, Ziyal all get really strong work this week too. Smiley face.
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Old March 24 2010, 10:18 PM   #727
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

DS9 rightfully takes the week this week, although, I have to say, Epiphanies doesn't look too bad. I don't know, maybe I'll try out B5 one day when I get the chance.

Unity was kind of on a par with Blood Fever for me, but I remember being a bit disappointed in its conclusion, mainly because while Blood Fever had given us this massive hype with a Borg corpse, indicating that Borg space was coming up, all we got was this admittedly intriguing look at the Borg, and then its off into the next episode, with no sniff of a Borg until the end of the season. Still, it gave Chakotay an episode, and it wasn't a dismal one. Actually, it may have been the best of the season thus far, with Blood Fever, The Chute and Future's End running close behind it. Season 3 had a much stronger finish then beginning.

What to say about In Purgatory's Shadow, other than I loved it. It's right in the middle of DS9's best season, has well, brilliant stuff with Garak, Bashir and Worf in the prison camp, and the B-Story I also remember loving. It's in my top 5 of the whole series.
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Old March 27 2010, 06:35 AM   #728
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 20: (Ending 02.23.97)
DS9 - By Inferno's Light (02.17.97)
VOY - Darkling (02.19.97)
B5 - The Illusions Of Truth (02.20.97)

You would think by now we'd have learned that DS9 loves the bait-and-switch cliffhanger, wouldn't you? But no, predicting Cardassia joining the Dominion was the last thing on anyone's mind when In Purgatory's Shadow ended, yet just makes perfect sense after the fact. We're just so bloody used to the status quo being maintained in Trek, that to have a shake up like this is unprecedented. Wherever can the series go from here?

As for the episode itself, there are a couple quibbles to be had. Like, obviously, why is that Runabout in orbit of the asteroid, and why didn't we ever see it before!?? Also, the Master Plot of Changeling-Bashir seemed a bit tacked on. It was as though the writers felt they had to give the folks on the station something to do to make this an actual episode of TV, despite the major reveal of Dukat's duplicitous actions at the beginning really being the only thing everyone's going to remember after the fact. After all, it's what matters in the long run.

Neither VOY or B5 come close this week. VOY isn't even in the same field. What the hell was that anyway? What started out like a pedestrian 'Kes falls in love and contemplates leaving' episode (which I would have been all for anyway -more Kes, now in a catsuit!) turns into some hammy 'Doc gets evil' plot instead. Meh.

As for B5, Glenn Beck goes to the station on behalf of Fox News to do a rep

A news crew from ISN goes to B5 to do a story about the station on behalf of Clarke, to create a gut-wrenching propaganda piece that is still annoyingly believable given the pieces of information they took and subverted. They don't paint Sheridan as evil, but simply sympathetically misguided, which is what I'm sure many on Earth want to believe anyway (er, if he is the 'bad guy' in this case). Really, this is less an episode and more an experiment, which works to a degree but feels like a lull overall in where B5 as a series has been going.

But then, with all the Big Events happening on DS9 this week, who'd want to stand toe-to-toe with that?

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Doctor Bashir, I Presume
VOY - Rise
B5 - Atonement
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Old March 27 2010, 12:10 PM   #729
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I'm not nuts about The Illusion of Truth. Most of it's actually done quite well, but I came away a bit confused about why Sheridan allowed this to happen. I mean, Sheridan's been known to make mistakes, but he's not an idiot. The episode's OK, but it pales in comparison to And Now for a Word.

By Inferno's Light is certainly a very good episode and wins the week. However, it's not as good as In Purgatory's Shadow. Cardassia joining the Dominion is a good twist, but the last episode built up expectations so high that it kind of feels a little anti-climactic, especially since it's obvious that the Dominion invasion is going to happen eventually. Don't get me wrong, it is a decent plot development, but after that cliffhanger it sort of feels like the threat level has been dialled down. The Worf and Garak stuff is very good though and I can overlook the silliness about the Runabout. I still rank this two-parter as one of DS9's best episodes, but it's not as satisfying as, say, Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast. Is suspect that making peace with the Klingons and bringing Martok on board DS9 may turn out to be a good idea though...
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Old March 27 2010, 04:28 PM   #730
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Well, with By Inferno's Light vs Darkling, I'm not really surprised. Voyager normally pumps out something better than a Doctor Jekyll ripoff even on its worst weeks. And after the Borg episode last week? Pathetic.

By Inferno's Light did drop a huge bombshell with Cardassia joining the Dominion, but while it maintained the same nice pace as In Purgatory's Shadow, it faltered a bit, as someone at the Dominion camp forgot to park the runabout, and they've been building up to the outbreak of war so much, that you're disappointed when it never happens. It did happen eventually, but in this episode it felt like, well what's the point of the Klingons and Romulans all turning up at the station, if nothing happens at the end to justify these huge reveals of allies at the end of each act?
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Old March 29 2010, 05:29 AM   #731
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 21: (Ending 03.02.97)
DS9 - Doctor Bashir, I Presume (Airdate 02.24.97)
VOY - Rise (Airdate 02.26.97)
B5 - Atonement (Airdate 02.27.97)

Picardo sure has been busy this past little while. He got to get all EVVILLLL last week on VOY, and now he gives us Zimmerman in the flesh this week, all the while still doing his regular EMH gig. Good times!

Eh, not a stellar week all in all though. Following the big events of the last episode, it feels off to now do a Bashir backstory episode. Might as well throw in a subplot of the Bajoran militia temporarily having a layover at the station in the process ( to the B5 followers) -it'd have been better than the tepid Rom/Leeta B-story we did get. Even Bashir's big revelation didn't seem to be that big of a deal, given that he more or less gets to carry on with his life as usual.

On B5's front, we get some interesting Delenn backstory, plus finally get to see what this Dukhat fella' was like, and why the whole Minbari race was willing to get all genocidal on humanity's ass for killing him. As for Delenn's own Big Secret, it wasn't too surprising. It at least explains a lot regarding Valen's Legacy, tho'.

VOY? I didn't even realize it was on. I thought I was watching an airing of one of those low-budget 70s airplane disaster flics. (okay, I'll admit I liked Neelix's and Tuvok's banter at the very end of the episode -shame I had to sit through the rest of Rise to get to that).

It's pretty much a tie between DS9 and B5 this week. I'd give the edge to B5 though, as it at least goes to some length in setting up future episodes with the "Franklin and Marcus go to Mars" sub-plot, which is intriguing. Makes you anxious to tune in again when the show comes back in late April. Hopefully we'll get some good follow-up on the Dominion thread from DS9 when it returns as well.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
VOY - Favorite Son
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Old March 29 2010, 06:19 PM   #732
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

I like Atonement a lot. It definitely pushes a lot of "fan" buttons: Delenn in the original make-up, Dukhat, the start of the Minbari War, but it also gives some good insights into Delenn as a character and the whole Human-Minbari relationship.

Dr Bashir, I Presume is OK. It's nice to see Robert Picardo and I guess this did open up some new story opportunities for Bashir, but I didn't find it wholly succesful as an episode. Part of this is probably the Rom-Leeta sub-plot. I can't say I'm crazy about either of these characters anyway and their story in this episode is just silly sitcom antics. So in the 24th century women can't ask men out?
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Old March 31 2010, 03:13 AM   #733
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 22: (Ending 03.23.97)
VOY - Favorite Son (Airdate 03.19.97)

Does anyone remember how popular fantasy TV was getting at this point? Hercules had proven to be a surprising hit, and the spin-off Xena even more so. Soon after, you had shows like Sinbad and even Conan on the airwaves. Around this time though, NBC did a TV movie based on The Odyssey. I recall this because my Grade 12 English class was doing its poetry section (*cringe*) and we were to do a report on a piece of poetry. I decided to do one on The Odyssey (epic poetry, yah!), and managed to convince my teacher to also show this movie in class as a part of my presentation. Yes, it was an elaborate ruse to get away with watching a freakin' movie for two classes instead of doing more poetry study. Win!

I bring this up because, as I was watching Favorite Son for the first time here, I couldn't help but think, "Y'know, this is really like that whole Sirens bit." And then Harry goes and says so at the end of the episode! So in a nutshell, VOY freely admits it's riding the current fantasy bandwagon with this episode. Except, of course, throwing in some sort of convoluted DNA-plot along the way. *sigh*

VOY wins this week of course, since it's a solo showing. Unfortunately, it also decided to show off a bit with an impromptu shadow boxing match, and ended up punching itself in the face in the process.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - A Simple Investigation
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Old April 4 2010, 05:35 AM   #734
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

Week 23: (Ending 04.06.97)
DS9 - A Simple Investigation (Airdate 03.31.97)

So I held off on this for a bit. Not that it's a bad episode or anything. It's quite good, in that quiet, understated Character Episode way that DS9's always been good at. Yet, it's just not an hour of television we go out of our way to specifically indulge in. Seriously, how many here would say, "Hm, out of all the DS9 episodes that I haven't watched in several years, ASI is the one I will watch today." Exactly.

I'm not saying it's a bad or dull episode. I'm just trying to make my excuse for why it took me a while to sit down and watch it again. Er, that plus the fact I had a Calc 'n Trig mid-term to write this week too.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Business As Usual
VOY - Before And After
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Old April 4 2010, 09:35 AM   #735
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Re: DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

You know? I quite like A Simple Investigation, it's not a classic or anything, but I certainly think its one of DS9's better romance episodes.
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