Miranda Class

[NCC-1701-B]

Why did the Miranda Class stay in production till the mid/late 24th century and the Constitution not? Theyre made of practically identical parts, i would love to see a Connie with a nice new bridge filled with LCARS panels. and the MSD would be cool...

What do you think?

[Sector 7]

... because kitbashed models tend to stick around on a tight SFX budget...

[NCC-1701-B]

There are enough cheap amt constitution class models around to use!

[USS Excelsior]

NCC-1701-B wrote:

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Why did the Miranda Class stay in production till the mid/late 24th century and the Constitution not?

I don't think they were still in production by the TNG era, it's just that all the ones in service are really old, some in service have been in service since the 23rd Century. As for the Constitution class it was an older class so was phased out earlier. Non canon sources say they were retired in the 2330s which would make that class almost 100.

[sbk1234]

If you want (what I think) is the real reason: TPTB probably felt that since the Constitution Class Enterprise was a "hero" ship, there can't be another ship on screen that looked like it, since it could cause some confusion among the audience.
But that's just my two cents worth.

[miraclefan]

sbk1234 wrote:

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If you want (what I think) is the real reason: TPTB probably felt that since the Constitution Class Enterprise was a "hero" ship, there can't be another ship on screen that looked like it, since it could cause some confusion among the audience.
But that's just my two cents worth.

That is true! I remember reading something to that effect in star trek communicater! But I like to think the Trek universe reason was because the Connie had too many weak points( i.e. the thin neck and pylons)!

[Dayton3]

My explanation was that in the late 23rd century, Starfleet built thousands of Miranda and Excelsior class ships, then put most into storage in case they needed them again.

Now they pull them out of storage and put them into action as needed. Like when the Dominion destroys large numbers of vessels during the war.

That would explain why the Federation seems to so easily overcome staggering combat losses in relatively short order.

[sbk1234]

Admiral Highandmighty's brother-in-law owned a plant that manufactured them.

[The_Beef]

I've seen unofficial explanations in the Trek Tech forum (which, incidentally, is probably where this thread should be) that try to explain it. One that I've seen recently that's being used in Praetor's history of the Excelsior class (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=86430&page=5) is that the Connies were essentially fazed out because of negotiations with the Klingons. Basically, the terms would have either limited the total amount of heavy cruisers or would have eliminated purpose-built warships altogether and left the heavy cruisers/explorers to fill the primary defense role. In either case, it would serve to explain why Excelsiors entirely supplanted the Constitutions, as they were much more powerful and up-to-date than the aging Constitution-Class. The Mirandas, on the other hand, would have been exempt and thus would have become more prolific during this period in order to pick up the slack. I don't know who came up with these theories originally, so I just want to clarify that they aren't mine originally, I just think they're highly plausible as a lore explanation.

I still have some questions (lorewise, of course) as to why there were so many Mirandas active at a later date. Their heavy presence during the Dominion War can be explained as reactivating old vessels that were on reserve, but some other lore explanation is necessary to explain just how they remained viable up through TNG without being supplanted by a more modern class. I'm sure somebody has come up with explanations before, I just can't remember them.

[Praetor]

The 'real' reason is this:

sbk1234 wrote:

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If you want (what I think) is the real reason: TPTB probably felt that since the Constitution Class Enterprise was a "hero" ship, there can't be another ship on screen that looked like it, since it could cause some confusion among the audience.
But that's just my two cents worth.

It's the same reason we saw no Sovereign class or Intrepid class ships n the Dominion War. (And yes, I'm aware of the Bellerophon. I'm pretty sure that was an economic reuse of the VGR sets and was clearly the single exception.)

Dayton3 wrote:

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My explanation was that in the late 23rd century, Starfleet built thousands of Miranda and Excelsior class ships, then put most into storage in case they needed them again.

Now they pull them out of storage and put them into action as needed. Like when the Dominion destroys large numbers of vessels during the war.

That would explain why the Federation seems to so easily overcome staggering combat losses in relatively short order.

I've had to do a lot of thinking about this in trying to reconcile all of this for the purposes of my Excelsior Tech Manual (see here.) While I haven't gone into the Miranda much yet (and won't much at all) it has factored into my thinking. I'd say it's only partly that they were built in high numbers. I personally believe that the design was part of it; Miranda was 'only' launched in the late 2250s, making it slightly newer. I also believe that its design is intrinsically more adaptable and useful for a wider variety of missions than the Constitution - as we've seen it in missions from cargo transport to scientific on TNG alone.

I think the treaty with the Klingons post TUC had limits on the numbers and types of ships that the Federation could operate, and that Starfleet phased out almost all of the older Constitution class in favor of the newer Excelsiors that were designed to replace them because they were ships of the line and points of contention with the Klingons. Several decommissioned Constitutions would then be placed in reserve fleets, while a few might not be decommissioned at all.

Mirandas, on the other hand, were 'only' frigates and were presumably exempt from the same limitations, as they could be written off as 'research ships' or 'transports' while still packing a wallop. Likewise, it might have proven more economical to keep the Miranda rather than develop a totally new design, especially if they could make use of parts from the retired Constitution class ships for repairs to extend their lifespan. (I postulate later in the ExcelsiorTM that the Centaur was an example of an Excelsior-contemporary designed to replace the Miranda which ultimately did not prove itself as an improvement over the Miranda.)

For what it's worth, we saw wreckage of a Constitution class ship in 'Best of Both Worlds Part II' in the Battle of Wolf 359, the same footage again in 'Unification' in the Qualor II Surplus Yard (perhaps the same ship, perhaps not) and again in DS9's 'The Sound of Her Voice' as the wreckage of the U.S.S. Olympia. All of these instances were reuses of the 'destroyed' Enterprise from TSFS. So they're still around to some extent. There just aren't many, or enough for us to see them very often.

[judge alba]

not sure where i read it from but i think it was that the connies were not that easy to refit like the more 'blocky' mirandas and were not as adaptable to converting to transports and the like, so during the peace talks with the klingons the connies were phased out in favour of fewer but newer types like the constelations or even more mirandas.

oops pretty much wat was said above

[Unicron]

sbk1234 wrote:

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If you want (what I think) is the real reason: TPTB probably felt that since the Constitution Class Enterprise was a "hero" ship, there can't be another ship on screen that looked like it, since it could cause some confusion among the audience.
But that's just my two cents worth.

I think that can be partly traced back to Gene Roddenberry, who vetoed the notion of an entirely new class representing the Enterprise in TMP. He seemed to think this would cause the audience to "forget" about the TOS incarnation.

[USS Excelsior]

The_Beef wrote:

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Their heavy presence during the Dominion War can be explained as reactivating old vessels that were on reserve, but some other lore explanation is necessary to explain just how they remained viable up through TNG without being supplanted by a more modern class.

You would think that the Nebula class would be the one to supplant the Miranda.

[Dayton3]

Who knows.

Maybe one day we'll have a series set aboard the Enterprise-B, Excelsior class.....and in dozens of episodes we'll see her supported by several Constitution refits.

It is worth noting that many of the Mirandas seen in the DS9 era seemed to have different weapons mounted than from the U.S.S. Reliant in TWOK

[Praetor]

Unicron wrote:

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I think that can be partly traced back to Gene Roddenberry, who vetoed the notion of an entirely new class representing the Enterprise in TMP. He seemed to think this would cause the audience to "forget" about the TOS incarnation.

...Which is kind of funny, when you consider almost everything visually was changed from TOS anyway. But I agree. He was the source of the equation where Connie=TOS, and it seemed to stick with the producers of TNG onward.

USS Excelsior wrote:

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You would think that the Nebula class would be the one to supplant the Miranda.

But the Nebulas are much larger and only have registry numbers in the NCC-6xxxx range upward and seem coupled to the Galaxy project, which we know as of the 2360s to be a new thing. It is definitely a descendant, but not a direct successor.

Dayton3 wrote:

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It is worth noting that many of the Mirandas seen in the DS9 era seemed to have different weapons mounted than from the U.S.S. Reliant in TWOK

And, almost all of those with visible registries had relatively high numbers - circa NCC-31xxx.