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Old April 10 2009, 07:29 AM   #16
Shaw
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Location: Twin Cities
Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

CaptainHawk1 wrote: View Post
BTW, Shaw, beautiful work so far. I'm an OOB kit builder and other than modification or correction parts here and there I've never scratch-built anything like this so I awed by your skill.
Thanks!

it has been a while since I had attempted anything along these lines... specially as a model. In fact the last time I did something along these lines was back in 1991 when I made a model of the Excelsior from scratch. Back then there wasn't a kit, and all I had for reference was a few photos (less than I had used here), most of which were from a copy of Cinefex. From those images (using a Xerox copier and tracing paper) I took measurements and (like here) drew up plans for how I was going to build the model.

I no longer have either copies of the plans or the model anymore. But fortunately I sold the original vellums of those plans to help pay for a quarter of school and someone has since put up a photo of a copy of them on the net.


A couple years ago I took some time to practice a little with a simple shape using the same technique... the Phaser I. This was what I used as a general starting point.


The bottom image is from my study back in 1994, behind me on the wall are some prop replicas I had created (TOS Phaser I & II, TNG Phaser and TNG Tricorder).

This is how it looked following the initial build up (from foam core board and paper).


This is additional detailing.


First coat of paint.


And a little more detailing.

That is where I stopped on this as it was simply an exercise. I'm using the same techniques on both the Enterprise and the hand laser, only those are being built as more substantial pieces than the phaser was.

The techniques can be used for most anything, I just happen to mainly use it for Star Trek stuff.
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Old April 10 2009, 08:09 AM   #17
CaptainHawk1
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
"Same difference" as in it's a problem with the decals themselves and not something that was intentionally put there by the model makers.
Can't argue with that. Good point.

Just wanted to clear the air on the difference.

But I do understand where you were going, now.
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Old April 10 2009, 08:13 AM   #18
CaptainHawk1
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Shaw, seriously, it's an honor to have you here. Keep showing off your work, it's great!
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Old April 10 2009, 05:02 PM   #19
Praetor
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Shaw wrote: View Post
it has been a while since I had attempted anything along these lines... specially as a model. In fact the last time I did something along these lines was back in 1991 when I made a model of the Excelsior from scratch. Back then there wasn't a kit, and all I had for reference was a few photos (less than I had used here), most of which were from a copy of Cinefex. From those images (using a Xerox copier and tracing paper) I took measurements and (like here) drew up plans for how I was going to build the model.

I no longer have either copies of the plans or the model anymore. But fortunately I sold the original vellums of those plans to help pay for a quarter of school and someone has since put up a photo of a copy of them on the net.

Say, Shaw, that's not bad at all, and seems very accurate given what resources you must have had available at the time. I'd have loved to have seen that model...
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Old April 11 2009, 05:37 PM   #20
Shaw
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Praetor wrote: View Post
Say, Shaw, that's not bad at all, and seems very accurate given what resources you must have had available at the time. I'd have loved to have seen that model...
Yeah, I didn't have much. As I recall these were just about all the references I had to work from at the time...


And they were all printed images (from before I had computers that would let me dissect them for study) and measurements were made from Xerox copies or tracings (so as not to damage the originals). Of course I also didn't use computers for drawing them either, they were done using traditional pencil/paper and ink/vellum techniques.

Strangely enough the final model looked a lot like the final study model of the Excelsior (but with better paint and hull graphics). Shortly after finishing my model the kit came out, and I built one of those into the USS Hood (and used fiber optics for lighting it).


__________________

Maybe (while I'm hemming and hawing on which direction to go on this model) we could use this thread to discuss the history of the model I'm attempting to replicate. The original thread that was used two years ago while I was working on my plans is gone because the old site software deleted threads after a certain age.

People still seem to wonder about this model and I was short on details in my plans as I was more concerned with the drawings (and the models geometry) than the history at the time. Since then I've been collecting together a lot more about the history (of both models), and can even point out which episodes featured the 33 inch model in all three seasons.

So in the next few days I'll put together that information, along with some before and after diagrams of the model discussing the differences between how it looked in The Cage/WNMHGB and how it looked when altered to better match the series alterations made to the 11 foot model.

To get started, here is a collection of images of the 33 inch model I put together a while back.


And a review of the early production history...
  • Nov. 4, 1964 (Wednesday): Richard Datin agrees to build an approximate three foot long model based on an early set of plans which give a real world scale of 1:48 (if this had been the final drawings, this would have been the 540' version, but the proportions of this early drawing are actually significantly different from the final plans).
  • Nov. 7, 1964 (Saturday): The final construction plans are finished. These plans include the scale reference of FULL SIZE & 3" = 1'-0" TO LARGE MINIATURE. My reconstruction of those plans can be found here.
  • Nov. 8, 1964 (Sunday): Richard Datin receives the plans and starts building the full size 33 inch model out of kiln-dried sugar pine.
  • Nov. 15, 1964 (Sunday): A little more than a week later the 33 inch model is presented to Roddenberry for approval. I'd guess this is where the addition of exterior windows was requested (which were not part of the original design), and the model returns with Datin after this viewing of it.
  • Dec. 8, 1964 (Tuesday): Construction is started on the 11 foot model.
  • Dec. 14, 1964 (Monday): The 33 inch model is delivered to Roddenberry for final approval while The Cage was being filmed in Culver City (there are images of Hunter and Roddenberry examining the model on this date). This model is used for all effects shots in The Cage except the most important one (the zoom in on the bridge).
  • Dec. 24, 1964 (Thursday): Shooting of The Cage wraps, only one effects shot still outstanding (all other model shots use the 33 inch model).
  • Dec. 29, 1964 (Tuesday): The 11 foot model (built by Datin, Mel Keys and Vern Sion) was delivered to the Howard A. Anderson studio. This version is unpowered and the windows are painted on the surface of the model... and even then the model was designed to be shot from the right side only.
  • Jan. 23, 1965 (Saturday): After The Cage is already in the can and waiting for network approval of the new series, additional test shots of the 11 foot model are taken in it's original condition.
  • Jan. 30, 1965 (Saturday): Aspects of the ship's size (like it being 190,000 tons) were being distributed to the media in the descriptions of the new show.

I'm still working on nailing down more info, but this is a good start.

As for when the model was seen, I'm working on a shot list, but in generally it was seen in every episode of TOS (as it went swooshing by in the opening credits). It was used for all but the bridge zoom in shot in The Cage, it was used for the shot of the Enterprise leaving the barrier in WNMHGB. It was used for the shots of the Enterprise from below in Tomorrow is Yesterday (two different angles). Though it was generally retired by the second season (an AMT model of the Enterprise was constructed to take it's place at the same time as the Constellation was made), it did appear in By Any Other Name (exiting the barrier and zooming towards the Andromeda Galaxy) using shots of the model from WNMHGB and The Cage. In the third season it appeared in Is There In Truth No Beauty? (two speeding Enterprise shots before entering the barrier and one of the ship exiting the barrier), again using shots of the model from The Cage and WNMHGB. It's last appearance on screen (and the first using new footage since Tomorrow is Yesterday) was in Requiem for Methuselah when it played a reduced Enterprise sitting on a table top (and what I am aiming for my model to generally look like when finished).


I think it is generally known that after the series ended it was given to Roddenberry (who displayed it on his desk throughout the 1970s), but was lost after it was loaned to someone in the early 1980s. The person (or persons) didn't return the model and Roddenberry claimed to have forgotten who it was that he loaned it to. It is still missing to this day.
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Old April 12 2009, 03:03 PM   #21
caisson2delta
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Incredible work. I basically stick to out of box now and haven't done any scratch building in years, and never anything even close to that. Absolutely awesome.
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Old April 12 2009, 03:36 PM   #22
CuttingEdge100
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

I'm impressed
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Old April 12 2009, 04:22 PM   #23
Praetor
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Shaw wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Say, Shaw, that's not bad at all, and seems very accurate given what resources you must have had available at the time. I'd have loved to have seen that model...
Yeah, I didn't have much. As I recall these were just about all the references I had to work from at the time...


And they were all printed images (from before I had computers that would let me dissect them for study) and measurements were made from Xerox copies or tracings (so as not to damage the originals). Of course I also didn't use computers for drawing them either, they were done using traditional pencil/paper and ink/vellum techniques.

Strangely enough the final model looked a lot like the final study model of the Excelsior (but with better paint and hull graphics). Shortly after finishing my model the kit came out, and I built one of those into the USS Hood (and used fiber optics for lighting it).
Wow, it's even more incredible that those were your only resources and it came out so accurate.

I don't suppose you have pictures of it or the Hood model laying around?


Maybe (while I'm hemming and hawing on which direction to go on this model) we could use this thread to discuss the history of the model I'm attempting to replicate. The original thread that was used two years ago while I was working on my plans is gone because the old site software deleted threads after a certain age.

People still seem to wonder about this model and I was short on details in my plans as I was more concerned with the drawings (and the models geometry) than the history at the time. Since then I've been collecting together a lot more about the history (of both models), and can even point out which episodes featured the 33 inch model in all three seasons.

So in the next few days I'll put together that information, along with some before and after diagrams of the model discussing the differences between how it looked in The Cage/WNMHGB and how it looked when altered to better match the series alterations made to the 11 foot model.

To get started, here is a collection of images of the 33 inch model I put together a while back.


And a review of the early production history...
  • Nov. 4, 1964 (Wednesday): Richard Datin agrees to build an approximate three foot long model based on an early set of plans which give a real world scale of 1:48 (if this had been the final drawings, this would have been the 540' version, but the proportions of this early drawing are actually significantly different from the final plans).
  • Nov. 7, 1964 (Saturday): The final construction plans are finished. These plans include the scale reference of FULL SIZE & 3" = 1'-0" TO LARGE MINIATURE. My reconstruction of those plans can be found here.
  • Nov. 8, 1964 (Sunday): Richard Datin receives the plans and starts building the full size 33 inch model out of kiln-dried sugar pine.
  • Nov. 15, 1964 (Sunday): A little more than a week later the 33 inch model is presented to Roddenberry for approval. I'd guess this is where the addition of exterior windows was requested (which were not part of the original design), and the model returns with Datin after this viewing of it.
  • Dec. 8, 1964 (Tuesday): Construction is started on the 11 foot model.
  • Dec. 14, 1964 (Monday): The 33 inch model is delivered to Roddenberry for final approval while The Cage was being filmed in Culver City (there are images of Hunter and Roddenberry examining the model on this date). This model is used for all effects shots in The Cage except the most important one (the zoom in on the bridge).
  • Dec. 24, 1964 (Thursday): Shooting of The Cage wraps, only one effects shot still outstanding (all other model shots use the 33 inch model).
  • Dec. 29, 1964 (Tuesday): The 11 foot model (built by Datin, Mel Keys and Vern Sion) was delivered to the Howard A. Anderson studio. This version is unpowered and the windows are painted on the surface of the model... and even then the model was designed to be shot from the right side only.
  • Jan. 23, 1965 (Saturday): After The Cage is already in the can and waiting for network approval of the new series, additional test shots of the 11 foot model are taken in it's original condition.
  • Jan. 30, 1965 (Saturday): Aspects of the ship's size (like it being 190,000 tons) were being distributed to the media in the descriptions of the new show.

I'm still working on nailing down more info, but this is a good start.

As for when the model was seen, I'm working on a shot list, but in generally it was seen in every episode of TOS (as it went swooshing by in the opening credits). It was used for all but the bridge zoom in shot in The Cage, it was used for the shot of the Enterprise leaving the barrier in WNMHGB. It was used for the shots of the Enterprise from below in Tomorrow is Yesterday (two different angles). Though it was generally retired by the second season (an AMT model of the Enterprise was constructed to take it's place at the same time as the Constellation was made), it did appear in By Any Other Name (exiting the barrier and zooming towards the Andromeda Galaxy) using shots of the model from WNMHGB and The Cage. In the third season it appeared in Is There In Truth No Beauty? (two speeding Enterprise shots before entering the barrier and one of the ship exiting the barrier), again using shots of the model from The Cage and WNMHGB. It's last appearance on screen (and the first using new footage since Tomorrow is Yesterday) was in Requiem for Methuselah when it played a reduced Enterprise sitting on a table top (and what I am aiming for my model to generally look like when finished).


I think it is generally known that after the series ended it was given to Roddenberry (who displayed it on his desk throughout the 1970s), but was lost after it was loaned to someone in the early 1980s. The person (or persons) didn't return the model and Roddenberry claimed to have forgotten who it was that he loaned it to. It is still missing to this day.
Any idea why the 33" model was retired in favor of an AMT kit? That's rather weird to me. I'd love for that 33" model to be found.

(And I suppose technically that means three models have 'played' the TOS Enterprise and makes the AMT version a little more valid?)
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
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Old April 14 2009, 02:58 AM   #24
Shaw
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Praetor wrote: View Post
I don't suppose you have pictures of it or the Hood model laying around?
Sadly I have next to nothing from before 1997... The image of me in my study (and one of my ex-wife in my study from a different angle) are all that remain of any of those models and props (with the outside possibility that a scratch built model of the USS Horizon might still exist at Hobby Central... but I doubt it).


Any idea why the 33" model was retired in favor of an AMT kit? That's rather weird to me. I'd love for that 33" model to be found.

(And I suppose technically that means three models have 'played' the TOS Enterprise and makes the AMT version a little more valid?)
Well, from a practical stand point, any time the Enterprise was seen with any amount of detail, that could be done with footage of the 11 foot model. But when you needed it very small, it was easier to get those shots with the 18 inch model than the 33 inch model.

It was only used a couple times (that I know of)... Doomsday Machine (Enterprise being pulled into the planet killer) and Trouble with Tribbles (one shot with it behind the K-7 station model, and a number of shots outside the administrator's office window). The AMT model of the Constellation was also used in Ultimate Computer, but that was footage from Doomsday Machine recomposed.

The model was great for Trouble with Tribbles because in all the shots of it outside the window it hardly changed size (in frame) no matter where the camera was positioned. So it had to be far enough away not to be effected by where the camera was in the room, but not so far away as to require more room for the star field than was available.

One has to remember that back then perspective was something that showed up better than small details. The 11 foot model was important because it could show off perspective nicely (making the ship seem very large), and the thought was that the AMT model could do the reverse (making it seem very far away). Most other details were likely to be lost by the time people saw it on their TV screens, which is why they had no problems using three models (including the 11 foot one in three different configurations) throughout the run of the series.



And thanks again for the encouragement guys!
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Old April 15 2009, 03:39 AM   #25
Captain Robert April
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

And here's that 18" model nowadays, when it was in one of those "Profiles in History" auctions a while back...



Personally, I'd be kinda torn on whether to get new decals for this thing if I ever got it. Would that ruin the historical value of the piece?
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Old April 15 2009, 11:27 AM   #26
Shaw
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Personally, I'd be kinda torn on whether to get new decals for this thing if I ever got it. Would that ruin the historical value of the piece?
I would think that if you used original decals from the first edition long box, and matched their position to the ghosting of the old decals on the model, that it would be considered an authentic restoration. Anything else beyond that (like modifying the paint on the model) would venture into the range of damaging it's value though.
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Old April 15 2009, 08:59 PM   #27
Captain Robert April
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

That brings up another question: Would a decal sheet from '67 even still be usable?
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Old April 16 2009, 01:46 AM   #28
Praetor
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
And here's that 18" model nowadays, when it was in one of those "Profiles in History" auctions a while back...



Personally, I'd be kinda torn on whether to get new decals for this thing if I ever got it. Would that ruin the historical value of the piece?
That's really cool to see. Am I correct in the belief that the original version of this kit actually lit up if you put it together properly?
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Old April 16 2009, 02:44 AM   #29
Shaw
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

Praetor wrote: View Post
That's really cool to see. Am I correct in the belief that the original version of this kit actually lit up if you put it together properly?
The best reference I know of is this article: History and Evolution of the AMT 18" U.S.S. Enterprise kit. Because it seems that many (if not all) of the parts were eventually retooled by the mid-1970s, most 18" kits share only a general resemblance to the ones used in the series for the Enterprise and Constellation models.

As I recall, the early kits were designed to have the top and bottom dome light up, and little else. So that model of the Enterprise used in the series was pretty heavily modified to include those elements (though it seems like a wasted effort as you couldn't see the lights on that model in the show). And it also may have been the ability to add lights that pushed them towards using the 18" model in favor of the 33" model (which was solid wood so could never be lit from within).
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Old April 16 2009, 09:48 AM   #30
Captain Robert April
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Re: A Two-Thirds 33 inch Enterprise

The one pictured above is possibly the much rarer '67 version, which also had lit-up clear amber nacelle caps in addition to the upper and lower sensor domes in the primary hull.

Or, they had a couple of clear resin castings made of the nacelle caps. Either one's possible.

As for why the attention to detail, you never know what's gonna show up on screen until you see it in the dailies, so better to have a little more detail than you need than have a blank white model on screen at a point where it's too late to fix it.
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