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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 13 2009, 03:04 AM   #796
Captain X
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Why are people making excuses for this frak-up? It's not like none of the series or movies have ever done anything like this before. Hell, Harry Kim was an ensign for 7 years despite apparently being the senior-most surviving operations officer on board Voyager. Paris was promoted, demoted, and re-promoted, Tuvok was promoted at least once, but Kim, nadda. Same thing with everyone on the NX-01, who remained at the same rank for at least 10 years. In an episode of DS9, irony of all ironies, Nog was the senior commissioned officer on a ship full of cadets and should have taken command, but he apparently elected to become a cadet again. So now they basically did the same kind of thing again, but just because everyone knows Kirk is supposed to be the captain of the Enterprise. It's just as stupid, but only one negative point - why defend it like it actually makes some kind of sense?
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Old April 13 2009, 03:35 AM   #797
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Anthony wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post

Who?

No, my name's not Dennis.
Your posting style, the prose--reminded me of someone. A Mr. Dennis Bailey, precisely. Eerily similar. My mistake.

I apologize for the comparison.
Feh - Babaganoosh doesn't use nearly enough elipses, parentheses and run-on sentences to be Bailey. Beyond that he has a little of the doggedness, but lacks the requisite arrogance.

And unsurprisingly, you exhibit a tone deafness to prose style.


I hear well enough. Enough to know you exhibit a profound tone deafness to common sense in general, much like someone attempting to play the Moonlight Sonata on a piano minus eighty-seven keys.

Dismissed, Admiral.
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Old April 13 2009, 03:50 AM   #798
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

urbandk wrote: View Post
Would it happen in the US Navy? probably not, but this is Star Trek and a movie, and it makes for an exciting story, for me anyways.
It's true that we have no precedent for junior naval officers saving the planet, so who knows?
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Old April 13 2009, 03:50 AM   #799
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Neftoon wrote: View Post
Pines performance in the kobayashi maru was awesome, karl urban was also good in that seen.
So they actually SHOW him taking the Kobi, or just that he took it and they show the aftermath?
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Old April 13 2009, 03:52 AM   #800
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

section9 wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
As long as they leave it somewhat openended at the conclusion of the film (as to whether Pike can once again assume command), I'm okay with it. Strange as it may sound, I'm not a Pike fanboy, nor do I have anything against Kirk as a character. I guess I'm just too attached to the regular chain of command. The idea of a cadet - any cadet - going straight to a permanent captaincy, of a major ship of the line no less, does not exactly fire me up. If Pike retains command of the ship, but decides to keep Kirk on the crew and eventually - after several years - does give him the job permanently, I can believe that. I hope the film allows for that possibility. (It would be interesting, as I don't believe Kirk and Pike ever actually served together in TOS.) But in the meantime, let Kirk spend some time - no matter how short - as an Ensign, LT JG, Lieutenant, LCDR, and CDR before he makes Captain. Doesn't that make sense?
I have to agree. U.S.S. ENTERPRISE is classified as a heavy cruiser. During the American Civil War, George Armstrong Custer made it to Brevet Brigadier General before being RIFFED back down to Bird Colonel by Phil Sheridan and Grant for the duration of his career (he died a Bird at Little Bighorn). Most if not all Brevets were either dismissed at the end of the War or reduced in rank, like Custer.

Kirk is an Acting Captain, and that's all he is in this film. Yes, he gets a medal. But one other thing is important here: he is not even an Academy Graduate yet! I understand that he is a Command Cadet and Starfleet has their eyes on the young lad, but no one gets permanent command of a heavy cruiser in any time period unless you punch your tickets first.

Roddenberry knew this: TOS Kirk served on the REPUBLIC and the FARRAGUT before gaining command of the Big E from Pike. In the Abrams film, somehow Kirk gains command due to the absence of both Pike and Spock, as if there is no chain of command in Starfleet once the First Officer is absent or incapacitated. I know that in the U.S. Navy, they don't let the Midshipmen run things when they visit. You start as an Ensign and end up in the Center Chair.

Back to the Academy Graduate thing. Abrams must make it clear at some point that Kirk has actually graduated from the Academy. Nobody commands a ship, especially a big ship like the Enterprise, unless they've graduated from Annapolis-or, in this case, Starfleet Academy. Only when the big surge came in WWII did they relax that regulation, and then commands went to destroyer escorts and whatnot ships that were commanded by reservists.

George Patton wrote that it takes about ten years to make a really good officer. Yes, there are your naturals like Kirk, but even the born heroes like him have to go up the ladder getting command experience. One of the differences between this franchise and Star Wars is that we're supposed to take this kind of thing somewhat seriously. The notion of Kirk commanding the ENTERPRISE out of his Third Year is silly on its face, but no more silly than the notion of a bounty hunter named Han Solo being given command of a Rebel Fleet and being made a General (see Episode II). Patton would later remark that you have to learn how to shovel shit before you can ride a horse. The same applies to the character of Kirk.

Well said. It is evident that this isn't the Jim Kirk of the original series. This is the one thing that has really bothered me about this movie. I didn't want to see Jim Kirk be 'Wesley Crusher', the boy genius who saves the day while the adults stand around with their thumbs up their collective asses.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:16 AM   #801
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

BillJ wrote: View Post

Well said. It is evident that this isn't the Jim Kirk of the original series. This is the one thing that has really bothered me about this movie. I didn't want to see Jim Kirk be 'Wesley Crusher', the boy genius who saves the day while the adults stand around with their thumbs up their collective asses.
I hate being the reflexive defender of this movie, but I guess I will be once again.

This Kirk is not the Kirk of the original series. He takes his cues much more from the Kirks of Star Trek II through VI. That Kirk wasn't the Kirk of the original series either.

He certainly isn't mealy mouthed little Wesley either. He's lived a different life and events have shaped him differently.

He's also 28. He's not a boy. He steps up in crisis. He acts provocative but turns that quality into a strength.

I myself thought much more could be done with this new Kirk, but that's just it. He's got a new trail to blaze. The essence of the original character is there, but he's being interpreted by another actor.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:23 AM   #802
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

urbandk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Well said. It is evident that this isn't the Jim Kirk of the original series. This is the one thing that has really bothered me about this movie. I didn't want to see Jim Kirk be 'Wesley Crusher', the boy genius who saves the day while the adults stand around with their thumbs up their collective asses.
I hate being the reflexive defender of this movie, but I guess I will be once again.

This Kirk is not the Kirk of the original series. He takes his cues much more from the Kirks of Star Trek II through VI. That Kirk wasn't the Kirk of the original series either.

He certainly isn't mealy mouthed little Wesley either. He's lived a different life and events have shaped him differently.

He's also 28. He's not a boy. He steps up in crisis. He acts provocative but turns that quality into a strength.

I myself thought much more could be done with this new Kirk, but that's just it. He's got a new trail to blaze. The essence of the original character is there, but he's being interpreted by another actor.

From a military standpoint he is a boy among men. Men who were trained to handle crisis situations. How is Spock the XO if he can't handle the big chair and is getting shown up by a third year cadet?

These characters just seem screwy when compared to their TOS counter-parts.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:25 AM   #803
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

One thing that Orci made clear long ago is that he gets that Kirk is an extremely intelligent man - a generalist who can keep up with Spock's (presumed to be) scientifically sophisticated analyses and reason out or intuit fairly abstract solutions to problems. Beyond that he's well-educated on a range of subjects. That separates him from characters like Han Solo, or James Bond - they may be reasonably bright as well in many regards, but their characterizations don't properly depend upon anything beyond skill in their areas of experience and essential cleverness (or "occasional cleverness and frequent gunfire" on Solo's part).
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Old April 13 2009, 04:33 AM   #804
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Beyond that he's well-educated on a range of subjects.
How well educated could he be if he's hanging out at Iowa bars getting drunk on wood grain alcohol?

Maybe it'll make sense in the context of the movie. Here's hoping...
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Old April 13 2009, 04:34 AM   #805
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Well said. It is evident that this isn't the Jim Kirk of the original series. This is the one thing that has really bothered me about this movie. I didn't want to see Jim Kirk be 'Wesley Crusher', the boy genius who saves the day while the adults stand around with their thumbs up their collective asses.
I hate being the reflexive defender of this movie, but I guess I will be once again.

This Kirk is not the Kirk of the original series. He takes his cues much more from the Kirks of Star Trek II through VI. That Kirk wasn't the Kirk of the original series either.

He certainly isn't mealy mouthed little Wesley either. He's lived a different life and events have shaped him differently.

He's also 28. He's not a boy. He steps up in crisis. He acts provocative but turns that quality into a strength.

I myself thought much more could be done with this new Kirk, but that's just it. He's got a new trail to blaze. The essence of the original character is there, but he's being interpreted by another actor.

From a military standpoint he is a boy among men. Men who were trained to handle crisis situations. How is Spock the XO if he can't handle the big chair and is getting shown up by a third year cadet?

These characters just seem screwy when compared to their TOS counter-parts.
It's an XO, Pike, who recognizes that Kirk has a sort of genius and gives him the first officer duty. Kirk succeeded in analyzing a situation where the rest of the fleet's commanders failed. Kirk is sui generis. Spock has a different approach, but it was clear, even in TOS, that Spock's service was longer than Kirk's. Yet Kirk gets the command. He does here too, after demonstrating that Spock is incapable of being an effective commander because he is emotionally traumatized by the destruction of Vulcan. Kirk steps up.

It's not a perfect system, sure, but they work hard to make it plausible in the context of the movie. I've suspended my disbelief for much more egregious transgressions of logic in TOS and elsewhere, I'm not going to stop giving Star Trek the benefit of the doubt now, especially when they have a kick ass new movie out.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:36 AM   #806
urbandk
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Beyond that he's well-educated on a range of subjects.
How well educated could he be if he's hanging out at Iowa bars getting drunk on wood grain alcohol?

Maybe it'll make sense in the context of the movie. Here's hoping...
He wasn't before the academy. He was kinda a loser. But the movie skips three years later... so perhaps he got some good education at the academy.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:39 AM   #807
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

urbandk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandk wrote: View Post

I hate being the reflexive defender of this movie, but I guess I will be once again.

This Kirk is not the Kirk of the original series. He takes his cues much more from the Kirks of Star Trek II through VI. That Kirk wasn't the Kirk of the original series either.

He certainly isn't mealy mouthed little Wesley either. He's lived a different life and events have shaped him differently.

He's also 28. He's not a boy. He steps up in crisis. He acts provocative but turns that quality into a strength.

I myself thought much more could be done with this new Kirk, but that's just it. He's got a new trail to blaze. The essence of the original character is there, but he's being interpreted by another actor.

From a military standpoint he is a boy among men. Men who were trained to handle crisis situations. How is Spock the XO if he can't handle the big chair and is getting shown up by a third year cadet?

These characters just seem screwy when compared to their TOS counter-parts.
It's an XO, Pike, who recognizes that Kirk has a sort of genius and gives him the first officer duty. Kirk succeeded in analyzing a situation where the rest of the fleet's commanders failed. Kirk is sui generis. Spock has a different approach, but it was clear, even in TOS, that Spock's service was longer than Kirk's. Yet Kirk gets the command. He does here too, after demonstrating that Spock is incapable of being an effective commander because he is emotionally traumatized by the destruction of Vulcan. Kirk steps up.

It's not a perfect system, sure, but they work hard to make it plausible in the context of the movie. I've suspended my disbelief for much more egregious transgressions of logic in TOS and elsewhere, I'm not going to stop giving Star Trek the benefit of the doubt now, especially when they have a kick ass new movie out.

Which heads back to the whole Jim Kirk is the new Wesley Crusher. All of these experienced commanders can't come up with a plan of action yet third year cadet Jim Kirk can? Guess the guy who plays Robau was wrong about other officers not being made to look stupid to make Kirk look good.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:44 AM   #808
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

BillJ wrote: View Post

Which heads back to the whole Jim Kirk is the new Wesley Crusher. All of these experienced commanders can't come up with a plan of action yet third year cadet Jim Kirk can? Guess the guy who plays Robau was wrong about other officers not being made to look stupid to make Kirk look good.
The only guy who looks stupid to make Kirk look good is Spock, but he's got problems of his own at that moment and redeems himself. the failure of the other commanders to assess the situation is not egregious; it was simply an inspired connection of events that allowed Kirk to see the incident at Vulcan for what it was.

If this issue is going to be a major hang up for you, you will indeed be disappointed by this part of the movie. I'm not, but I probably just see this movie through rose-colored glasses since I like it so much.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:44 AM   #809
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Ahh Trekkie superiority complex. Glad to know some things never change...

No Nerd Rage is more pure than Trek Nerd Rage.
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Old April 13 2009, 04:46 AM   #810
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Re: World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

urbandk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Which heads back to the whole Jim Kirk is the new Wesley Crusher. All of these experienced commanders can't come up with a plan of action yet third year cadet Jim Kirk can? Guess the guy who plays Robau was wrong about other officers not being made to look stupid to make Kirk look good.
The only guy who looks stupid to make Kirk look good is Spock, but he's got problems of his own at that moment and redeems himself. the failure of the other commanders to assess the situation is not egregious; it was simply an inspired connection of events that allowed Kirk to see the incident at Vulcan for what it was.

If this issue is going to be a major hang up for you, you will indeed be disappointed by this part of the movie. I'm not, but I probably just see this movie through rose-colored glasses since I like it so much.
I hope I'm as impressed as you are. Took a whole week of vacation around this film. Jim Kirk is my favorite character and I don't want his ascension to feel cheap.
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