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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old March 22 2009, 02:16 AM   #31
scotthm
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Chess Piece Face wrote: View Post
Who brought her back? Why did this thing that brought her back choose her? What is the deal with the thing that brought her back? Where did it come from? What does it look like? Why is it interested in humanity?
The ending strongly implied that it was someone called "god". Exactly how much theology do you think BSG should have gotten into?

---------------
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Old March 22 2009, 04:14 AM   #32
Elemental
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

RDM says:
I said, "I have some images, I don't know what I want to do with them. I have an image of a man in a house trying to chase a bird out with a broom. I don't know who it is, but I like it and it's somehow meaningful so let's put it up on the board."

That was one of the most nonsensical scenes in the show. Now it's all the more clear that it was something just thrown in to satisfy his ego. "It belongs in there," my ass.
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Old March 22 2009, 04:24 AM   #33
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Elemental wrote: View Post
Now it's all the more clear that it was something just thrown in to satisfy his ego.
He's a writer (and a very good one). You understand that? Okay, then about the "ego" part...

Anyway, I thought the Kara/Lee flashback was the least useful and interesting of the flashbacks. We learned nothing important about them that we didn't know or at least suspect - that Kara is impulsive and makes bad choices, that there was probably always a strong attraction between then, etc. The other flashbacks for the other characters basically showed us how they set upon, or stumbled upon, the courses of action that brought them finally to the rag tag fleet.

Now, the one thing that the Kara/Lee flashback did have in common with the others was that all of them suggest a kind of aimlessness and emptiness to their lives at that point. They numb it by drinking to excess, by casual sex, and so forth.
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Old March 22 2009, 07:37 AM   #34
Elemental
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Elemental wrote: View Post
Now it's all the more clear that it was something just thrown in to satisfy his ego.
He's a writer (and a very good one). You understand that? Okay, then about the "ego" part...
Not sure exactly what you're getting at...
The man invisioned someone chasing a bird in a house with a broom and was determined to get it into the episode despite knowing who it would be or having a reason for them for doing so. That's just stupid.

Now, the one thing that the Kara/Lee flashback did have in common with the others was that all of them suggest a kind of aimlessness and emptiness to their lives at that point. They numb it by drinking to excess, by casual sex, and so forth.
^Casual sex in BSG?! You've gotta be kidding me!
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Old March 22 2009, 07:57 AM   #35
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

TV Guide interview with RDM
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Old March 22 2009, 10:04 AM   #36
the_wildcard
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

MR: One of my biggest outstanding questions was whether you would pay off the Cally story line. She got very little justice in life and I wanted her to get justice in death. I actually said this in a comment on my site, “They’re not going to answer the Cally thing, are they?” I am the worst predictor of anything, ever.


RDM: See, I deliberately buried that too. I said, let’s not even talk about Tory and Cally again. Let’s bury that card deep in the deck and then at this moment, when you’re not even remotely thinking about it, let’s play that card. And then likewise, when you’re not even thinking about Earth, let’s play that card.
NICE........very nice. It caught me off guard, that's for sure.
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Old March 22 2009, 10:37 AM   #37
Koinek
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
2001 was great. 2001 was set up from the beginning to do what it did.

It made man, then it came back and judged him, and perhaps remade him into something even greater.

It was ambiguous and mystical, but like I said, mysticism can work if set up properly.

In fact, 2001 wasn't close to as off-the-wall as Daybreak--we had everything we needed in 2001 to explain what we knew happened and theorize about what we didn't. We had an instrumentality, in the form of the monolith; we had a recognizable goal, that being the directed evolution of humankind; and finally we had reasonable actions taken in pursuit of that goal, the visit of the monolith coinciding with humanity's development of AI and venturing to Jupiter.

And we do learn in the later books that humanity is actually a failure in the monoliths' eyes... but 2001, despite its ambiguity, is clear and definite enough to allow the imagination to soar and to fall, thinking about the possibilities for Dave Bowman and for all humankind, from transcendence to extinction.

We don't even know enough to profitably hypothesize what BSGod's goal is.

2001 is also an exercise in pure style, to the extent that some criticize it for lacking substance. I think that's wrong in 2001's case... but right on the money for BSG.
Also, 2001 was 2 hours long. BSG spanned what?...60 or so hours?

MR: One of my biggest outstanding questions was whether you would pay off the Cally story line. She got very little justice in life and I wanted her to get justice in death. I actually said this in a comment on my site, “They’re not going to answer the Cally thing, are they?” I am the worst predictor of anything, ever.


RDM: See, I deliberately buried that too. I said, let’s not even talk about Tory and Cally again. Let’s bury that card deep in the deck and then at this moment, when you’re not even remotely thinking about it, let’s play that card. And then likewise, when you’re not even thinking about Earth, let’s play that card.
Intentional eh? Yea suuuuure buddy. Whatever you say.....

I can't believe that people actually trust any of this.

scotthm wrote: View Post
Chess Piece Face wrote: View Post
Who brought her back? Why did this thing that brought her back choose her? What is the deal with the thing that brought her back? Where did it come from? What does it look like? Why is it interested in humanity?
The ending strongly implied that it was someone called "god". Exactly how much theology do you think BSG should have gotten into?
"something". Precisely. How about actually giving us an impression of what god might be? Oh wait, that actually requires effort. This ending we got was a Deus Ex Machina. There was no plausible explanation left so RDM just threw his hands up and said "Ok god did it. Yup. That's it." Sloppy.
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Old March 22 2009, 01:24 PM   #38
Ayelbourne
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post

They're interested in its possibility. They're not deeply invested--Head Six's comments about mathematics doesn't suggest deep emotional investment. She'd like the cycle to end, and expects it eventually will, and even acts to move things in that direction. But at the end of the day, if it doesn't, they can always try again, and it is of no matter.
That Times Square scene reminded me of the awesome "Legacy of Kain" videogames.
There was a quote in "Soulreaver 2" that sort of fits this as well:

"Suppose, you threw a coin enough times. Suppose, one day, it lands on its edge."

Ofcourse, in BSG there has been only one outcome all the times, not two. But the principle is the same.

Whatever that entity that doesn't like being named God is, it is obviuosly interested in witnessing that "edge of the coin"-moment.
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Old March 22 2009, 01:32 PM   #39
Bishbot
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Killer Koinek wrote: View Post
MR: One of my biggest outstanding questions was whether you would pay off the Cally story line. She got very little justice in life and I wanted her to get justice in death. I actually said this in a comment on my site, “They’re not going to answer the Cally thing, are they?” I am the worst predictor of anything, ever.


RDM: See, I deliberately buried that too. I said, let’s not even talk about Tory and Cally again. Let’s bury that card deep in the deck and then at this moment, when you’re not even remotely thinking about it, let’s play that card. And then likewise, when you’re not even thinking about Earth, let’s play that card.
Intentional eh? Yea suuuuure buddy. Whatever you say.....

I can't believe that people actually trust any of this.
Yeah, but, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Who cares whether it was planned? It was a brilliant dramatic moment, which was "pulled out of the deck" in just the right way. Personally I suspect that was, at least, planned - the writers would not just have forgotten Cally. But even if it wasn't planned, it worked, and we watched it, so where's the harm?
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Old March 22 2009, 02:44 PM   #40
scotthm
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

Killer Koinek wrote: View Post
scotthm wrote: View Post
The ending strongly implied that it was someone called "god". Exactly how much theology do you think BSG should have gotten into?
"something". Precisely. How about actually giving us an impression of what god might be? Oh wait, that actually requires effort.
I didn't say "something", I said "someone".

And what if that someone is just God? Someone who we can't explain, and can't understand? Why would it have been better to reduce the behind-the-scenes orchestrator of all this to something that can be explained and understood in less than an episode? That would have been more disappointing than learning that Cavil destroyed the colonies in a childish fit to get back at his 'parents'.

---------------
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Old March 22 2009, 03:57 PM   #41
V
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

I said, "I have some images, I don't know what I want to do with them. I have an image of a man in a house trying to chase a bird out with a broom. I don't know who it is, but I like it and it's somehow meaningful so let's put it up on the board."
I thought that scene was dumb; just as a general metaphor for "I can't keep Starbuck" with...a bird. Look its not that it didn't make sense, its that it was corny.

Oh yeah, it’ll be controversial. There will be people who will absolutely hate it and think that we failed in our mission. We debated it in the [writers] room, I thought about it a long time, and I had sort of the same answer. And the more I struggled to give definition to it, the less satisfying it became. There various avenues we went down, discussions, saying she’s specifically this or that. And every time it felt uninteresting and kind of pedestrian.
It felt like, if she’s truly connected to the Eternal, if she’s connected to this other power, this other thing in the universe, as long as you know she’s connected to it and she’s fulfilled her destiny, brought us to this place, brought us to two Earths, really, that’s enough. That should just be left to your imagination, left to your inquiry, left you to try to fill in the blanks we leave. That was my answer and I’m sure -- I know – people will debate it.
MR: It worked for me, but I also wondered, has she been a Head character this whole time?
RDM: That’s a legitimate way to look at it too. We talked about that, that is a legitimate way to read it.
Okay, its what we feared most: a Sopranos-ending for Starbuck; "isn't it great if we leave it more mysterious?" NOOOOOOOOOOOO. Yikes.

Yeah. I think it's rooted firmly in traditions like that. We talked about that about that very idea, the Trinity, and Kara as somehow being representative or at least connected to that idea. We talked a lot about the resurrection of Christ and its mythology and how that plays into a woman who literally dies and comes back to life for a certain purpose and then leaves again and gives hope that there is something else. She sort of lives in all those kinds of thoughts.
ugh

Head Six’s interaction with Baltar was necessary because she had to get him to a place where he believed in God, or believed in the possibility of God as a concept or the supernatural in order to make the speech in CIC with Brother Cavil at that key moment.
Really, it doesn't make sense that EVERYTHING Baltar was through, being President, etc. was directed to THIS moment, though of course, they NEVER planned out the series.

RDM: Kara is what you want her to be. I think Kara – it’s easy to put a label on her of angel or messenger of God or something like that. Kara Thrace died and resurrected and [inaudible] and took people to their final end, and that was sort of her role, her destiny in the show. That’s sort of the long and the short of it. We debated back and forth in the writers room for a while about giving more definition, giving her more clarity and saying “This is definitively what she is.” And we started to say, the more you try to sort of outline and give voice to and put a name on it, the less interesting it became, and we just decided this was the most interesting way to go out, with her just disappearing and [you’re] wondering just exactly what she was.
Shut up. Just...shut up. We expected more than that...we were *led to believe* there would be more than that. I *don't* believe in "higher powers" and wanted the hardcore military scifi show there used to be, like a murder mystery novel, it can't end with "maybe an angel killed that guy"....

Moore confirms what I already assumed but he was afraid wasn't clear: the Colony got knocked out of orbit by the nukes and will be swallowed by the black hole.

Cavil killing himself came from Dean Stockwell. [in the script, Tigh was supposed to fling over the edge of a higher level in the CIC.] Dean called me himself and said, "You know, I just really think that in that moment, Cavil would realize the jig is up and it's all hopeless and just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself.
I was honestly confused by that and I'm happy he answered it:

No, the Cylons didnt' get resurrection technology back, Tyrol interrupted the download by stopping to kill Tory. Then the Colony got hit with nukes and is heading towards a black hole. Originally, they were going to be on the upper level of CIC (with Anders I guess) and Tigh would fling Cavil over a railing. Instead, Dead Stockwell got the idea that Cavil is thinking "we don't have resurrection technology, we don't have Hera, and the Cylon Homeworld is about to get sucked into a black hole. We're doomed. That's it, I give up" and shoots himself.

What I don't understand is, why don't they just grow more Cylons in vats, like they've BEEN doing? maybe the "humanoid Cylon factories" were all on the Resurrection Hub/Cylon Homeworld?

Oh, and both McDonnell and Olmos' final scenes for their characters, were also the last ones they shot.

Ultimately, his explanation of "The Music" was the same as they told us TWO YEARS AGO at the end of season 3 : "it's the universal collective unconscious filtering down to us, just as they wear western clothing, speak English, and have many other culturally similar traits to us"....okay the English-speaking can be explained by "Indo-European mutated from English, then back into English" but really all of the other cultural-specific stuff.

"This culture is the one that gave birth to ours… [All the slang and cultural stuff,] we get that from them, not the other way around. "


Well, its finally over. I hope people remember it more for the groundbreaking seasons one and two, than the later spiritual stuff when they were just making it up as they went along.
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Old March 22 2009, 07:56 PM   #42
scotthm
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

V wrote: View Post
RDM: Kara is what you want her to be....
Shut up. Just...shut up. We expected more than that...we were *led to believe* there would be more than that. I *don't* believe in "higher powers" and wanted the hardcore military scifi show there used to be
I didn't know what to expect regarding Kara and her nature, because I wasn't 'led to believe' that anything in particular would be explained. I'm actually glad it was left somewhat ambiguous, because I don't think there could have been an explanation that would have been satisfying.

I believe the real reason for most of the dissatisfaction with this episode is that it presumes that some 'higher power' exists and can manipulate the universe, and some people just can't handle that concept, even in a work of fiction.

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Old March 22 2009, 07:58 PM   #43
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

V, you're very dismissive. How do you enjoy anything?
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Old March 23 2009, 12:13 AM   #44
Koinek
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

scotthm wrote: View Post
V wrote: View Post
RDM: Kara is what you want her to be....
Shut up. Just...shut up. We expected more than that...we were *led to believe* there would be more than that. I *don't* believe in "higher powers" and wanted the hardcore military scifi show there used to be
I didn't know what to expect regarding Kara and her nature, because I wasn't 'led to believe' that anything in particular would be explained. I'm actually glad it was left somewhat ambiguous, because I don't think there could have been an explanation that would have been satisfying.
Unless I'm very mistaken, you aren't a well paid writer/producer for a popular TV show and I don't expect you to be able to come up with a better explanation. RDM however led me to believe he could do better. Unfortunately, I was very mistaken. Won't happen again.

Also, if we could independently conceive every plot twist, things would be very boring. These shows are interesting precisely because their authors can create a story that we wouldn't normally come up with ourselves, thus eliciting surprise.

I believe the real reason for most of the dissatisfaction with this episode is that it presumes that some 'higher power' exists and can manipulate the universe, and some people just can't handle that concept, even in a work of fiction.
If you've been reading the critiques on this site and other places on the net, you'd realize that it's less about the usage of god and more about how it was presented as a last minute catch-all.
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Old March 23 2009, 01:58 AM   #45
John Larocque
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Re: RDM interview about the finale here...

V wrote: View Post
Well, its finally over. I hope people remember it more for the groundbreaking seasons one and two, than the later spiritual stuff when they were just making it up as they went along.
I would say that started roughly in the middle of the second season after "Home".

I was also disappointed that they took the ambiguity out of the spiritual side of the equation and made it clear that "gods" were manipulating, events after all. It seems to me - and this is something that many critics (and TOS fans) made - that sometimes Ron hit on original series ideas that he first originally discarded (such as 12 Colonies instead of Planet Kobol in the miniseries script) and then later embraced. "Gods" or angels were manipulating the Colonials in 1978, and they were manipulating them in 2009.

In a weird way, that was also my reaction when they sent thousands of years of technology flying into the sun and went native on Earth II. In the backstory of the original series (yes, we're going back to 1978), after the twelve tribes left Kobol, the Colonials left their original planet in such bad shape that the turned on their technology on their new homeworlds, and it took them hundreds of years to become a spaceworthy race again. All of this happened before, all of this will happen again.

Salon magazine described the finale as the anti-Sopranos, because they did resolve, as best they could, so many of the storylines. "Whoah, Tyrol has avenged the death of his wife! About time..."

Oh "V", you should be aware that MrsRon's new pinned OK at thread at Skiffy mentions you in the very first post of one of the many people she has treasured at Skiffy. Take a bow.
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