RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,545
Posts: 5,513,322
Members: 25,143
Currently online: 441
Newest member: JackieM

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 300 71.94%
Above Average 59 14.15%
Average 20 4.80%
Below Average 19 4.56%
Poor 19 4.56%
Voters: 417. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old March 24 2009, 02:28 PM   #556
Goliath
Vice Admiral
 
Goliath's Avatar
 
Location: The Fifth Dimension
Re: Was the ending realistic?

AlanC9 wrote: View Post
Did the Colonials have any realistic way to maintain their technology if they wanted to? With 40,000 people you can maybe make Iron Age technologies work. You've got no chance of industrialization; you'll get killed on economies of scale. And there's no reason to suspect that they've got the skills to make, say, medieval techs work. Is there even one blacksmith? One stonemason who won't be helpless when the last spare parts for the power tools are used up?

I figured Lee was trying to put a positive spin on a bitter and brutal truth
I concur.

From what I've read, criticism of the whole "giving up technology" business can be divided into two parts:

first, giving up technology was a bad decision;

and second, giving up technology was an implausible decision.

Giving up technology may have been a bad decision. As I said, in another thread, if I was in their position, I would be strongly tempted to keep a few goodies for myself.

But, implausible?

Let's consider the case of a group of people who really existed, and who really were in a similar situation, not too long ago: namely, the Jews of Europe.

In 1945, after the destruction of the Third Reich, the surviving Jews of Europe had a problem. Their enemies had been defeated, and the threat of genocide had been lifted. But, what do they do now? And how do they prevent something like the Holocaust from happening again?

Arguably, if you were them, the smart thing to do in that situation would have been to say goodbye to the Old World and emigrate to the New--especially to the United States.

Americans might have been anti-semitic--but they wouldn't try to kill you: just keep you out of their country clubs. So, you get rich, found your own country club, and keep them out.

But what do a lot of them do instead? Let's try to follow their reasoning:

Zionist #1: I know--let's all go to Palestine!

Zionist #2: Of course! Palestine! The one place in the Middle East without any oil!

Zionist #3: We'll be safe there! Safe and secure!

Zionist #1: Who could possibly object to the establishment of a Jewish state in the overwhelmingly Muslim Middle East?

Zionist #2: I'm sure the Arabs will be willing to sell us all their land.

Zionist #1: They'll be happy to learn our foreign language and live under our foreign laws! They won't see us as colonialists at all!

Radical Zionist: There are no Arabs in Palestine! Palestine is uninhabited land--like Australia!

All: TO PALESTINE!!! HURRAY!!!

So: giving up technology, implausible?

All too plausible, in my opinion. Even if it was a bad decision.
__________________
An illusion--with intelligence! A malignant vision, with a will of pure evil!
Goliath is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 02:47 PM   #557
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

Gregsmack wrote: View Post

And all the people who completely missed the point of the story fail to realize that Lee and the Colonials decided that rebuilding a new society exactly like the one they just lost would defeat the point of beginning with a clean slate.
That's the mistake. To break the cycle, you don't want a clean slate. That just keeps the cycle going. What you want to do is to learn from your mistakes, keep your history, but do things differently. That will break the cycle.

Whether or not they caught diseases after the screen faded to black is irrelevant.
Whether they died or not is irrelevant?!

cultcross wrote: View Post
Although apparently I'm a "RDM fanboy" for pointing it out, by far the most plausible result of something like that happening 150,000 years ago is that we would have no clues whatsoever. Our primary evidence from that time is incredibly sketchy - it would have been mighty coincidental if we had found something. We can't even agree on when the ice ages happened because of absent or apparently contradictory evidence - a few modern humans living on Earth for a couple of hundred years (say) would hardly make a mark.
This part I actually agree with, mostly. Yeah, given that they didn't bring much down, there's not going to be much evidence. But again, the clean slate thing *is* their mistake. Not whether we can detect it or not.

Also, you're wrong, they have the timing of the ice ages down. There's no controversy there.

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
It seems perfectly plausible to me that people who have endured four years of this existence would be very, very amenable to giving it up and embracing a simple agrarian lifestyle.
You're romanticizing their new existence as "a simple agrarian lifestyle." No, what they're in for is a brutal, tough subsistence living riddled with starvation and disease. The majority will be dead in a couple of years.

I agree, the majority would want to settle on a beautiful planet like Earth. They'll give up their dirty tin cans that they've been living in. But, they're not going to give up their technology. Very different things.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 02:52 PM   #558
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
What's "realistic" in a fictional story? Certainly, BSG was naturalistic but it was hardly realistic from its premise.

The ending is certainly naturalistic and plausible within context of the fictional world of BSG, the hardships endured by the characters and the surviving "society."

It worked for me.
Really?! A fleet that was ready to mutiny at any time. A fleet that had no consensus on pretty much anything. Suddenly you're willing to believe that they'll give up their technology?!

Dude, if you'll buy that, I've got this bridge for sale . . . [licks chops]

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:34 PM   #559
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

boozebum wrote: View Post
They ended up pretty much where they were 150,000 years later. Congratulations on the amazing change. Now they don't even have the knowledge to avoid the mistakes of the mistake. All they did was postpone their development and make their descendants ignorant. Something anybody at the time would have been able to see.
This actually had me laughing. It is sadly true. And, I even enjoyed the finale for the most part. It wasn't a masterpiece but it was entertaining. Gave it an Above average. But, the ending just was not logical. All of that and all they do is produce a society that is about where they were at.

For me to enjoy the finale, I have to mentally remove the high falutin' stuff. The breaking the cycle, the gods and angles, etc. This is a story about their personal survival. After many trials and tribulations, they find a planet with natives and settle it. Period. They're not worried about cycles or what not, just a place to live. It doesn't explain away giving away tech, but, dang, you just can't think about it too thoroughly!

The story just gets murky when they throw in that "higher" stuff for the BSG universe which is really, at its core, a stark and harsh place. Not much life, not many habitable planets, etc. Just not a comfy place for humans overall.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:36 PM   #560
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Serial thread killer wrote: View Post
I was just thinking with the fleet now living on earth would they have illness that the natives would have no natural deferences against.
Which could wipe them out?
I covered this earlier in this thread. Short answer, yes. In one or both groups, natives and colonials.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:37 PM   #561
Gregsmack
Captain
 
Gregsmack's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Re: Was the ending realistic?

That's the mistake. To break the cycle, you don't want a clean slate. That just keeps the cycle going. What you want to do is to learn from your mistakes, keep your history, but do things differently. That will break the cycle.
They are doing things differently. They are doing things completely differently. Clean slate does not = the memory wipe of 38,000 people. If anything, technology would have scarred them for life.

Whether they died or not is irrelevant?!
Yes. Who cares whether or not they died? They would have died in the fleet or on Earth regardless. The screen has faded to black already. Speculating about what happened is only speculation. Maybe they all made a really good go of it for a while. All that matters in this fiction is the choice that they made. This endless argument about technology/no technology is completely absurd.

And also (just for argument's sake), I have yet to receive a list of all the wonderful technology that the Colonials had upon finding Earth. Surely their algae processors, dwindling sources of medication, and broken FTL drives would have served them very well on Earth. Or maybe they could have dismantled their ships, and built a pre-industrial close-quarters society in which endless violence and strife would have broken out once again because, certainly, desperate people stuck in claustrophobic, moldy dumpsters for four years don't need space to spread out, get some fresh air, eat some real food, and relax. Not if they have "technology", at least. Technology is the solution to all of life's problems. Everything will be okay if humans have their Technology.
__________________
"Lay off the Greeks. They invented civilization."
Gregsmack is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:39 PM   #562
Danoz
Rear Admiral
 
Danoz's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Or she just thought Tyrol would be more reasonable. She really should have known better. Tyrol's been quite the loose cannon lately.
YES that was quite shocking. Killed her without any resurrection tech... I wonder if he were to wake up with memories of their marriage that he would feel intense regret?
Danoz is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:43 PM   #563
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Gregsmack wrote: View Post
^ Which may be why Hera is important. On more than one occasion her biology is shown to be stronger and more suited for fighting off illness than both human and Cylon ('Epiphanies' and 'A Measure of Salvation' off the top of my head).
That's a spiffy thought and all but it won't be very helpful for either population for quite some time. If Hera has greater immunity, then Hera, herself, would have protection and *some* of her descendents *might* have protection. But, because she's a child, that won't come into play for a good number of years (she won't reproduce for awhile). Plenty of time for a plague to wipe out large portions of both populations.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:48 PM   #564
Stewey
Rear Admiral
 
Stewey's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom, Scouser Land
Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

I can hardly find words to describe how brilliant this finale was. I feel agreat deal of satisfaction after this ending, a total opposite of the utter disappointment I felt after Endgame. The ending made me feel that the journey taken had meaning and purpose.

I liked that the writers answered many questions while leaving some unanswered. It gives me the chance to create my own thoughts and answers to these questions. It is still sinking in and I will in time be more able to participate in the speculation and debate concerning the individual aspects of the finale and the events over the course of the overall series.

But for now, I rate this as excellent and I would like to thank Ron Moore and his team of writers for producing a brilliant, thought provoking series. I also think that the actors did a brilliant job of believably bringing these characters to life and my thanks go out to you for providing me with 4 excellent seasons of entertainment.

I would like to wish you all the best for your future projects.
__________________
"Market forces are the witchcraft of modern capitalism" - Tony Benn

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin.
Stewey is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:52 PM   #565
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

T'Pers0n wrote: View Post
After listening to the podcast for this, it feels a lot like what happened during the ending of season 3. They put a lot of plot threads in the air, but they went nowhere because the one supporting them was dropped. In season 3, the Saggitaron plot lead to Baltar's stabbing, the Trial, The Woman King, and whatever else. When they dropped the Saggitaron plot, it all sputtered out.

According to the podcast, dropping Ellen as a villian and removing the fullscale revolution changed everything. Deadlock is dead in the water since it doesn't leads to Ellen siding with Cavil. It also screwed up the CapSix baby plot. Hera was suppose to go to CapSix as a replacement baby after her miscarriage. Now, her whole pregnancy goes nowhere and Tigh drops her like a brick without even a second look or kind word. Not only that, it makes the whole opera house thing much ado about nothing. Baltar's cult with guns also now goes nowhere because they dropped the revolution/cult plot in favor of an earlier and smaller mutiny plot. Removing the revolution also killed the significance of the whole rebel basestar. I'm also guessing the whole 'Roslin in sickbay putting X's on peoples heads' thing was originally going to feature Athena/Helo dying, and at that point she decides to go after Hera.

I don't see why he had to change the whole ending to the series just because he didn't want Ellen as a villian. If there was no strike, the ending would have been much tighter.
Interesting and it explains a lot. Many of the problems go down to a lack of focus, a lack of writer discipline, of keeping things tight. They tossed too much up in the air and had no chance of effectively dealing with them all.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 03:55 PM   #566
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

Gregsmack wrote: View Post
That's the mistake. To break the cycle, you don't want a clean slate. That just keeps the cycle going. What you want to do is to learn from your mistakes, keep your history, but do things differently. That will break the cycle.
They are doing things differently. They are doing things completely differently. Clean slate does not = the memory wipe of 38,000 people. If anything, technology would have scarred them for life.

Whether they died or not is irrelevant?!
Yes. Who cares whether or not they died? They would have died in the fleet or on Earth regardless. The screen has faded to black already. Speculating about what happened is only speculation. Maybe they all made a really good go of it for a while. All that matters in this fiction is the choice that they made. This endless argument about technology/no technology is completely absurd.
We'll have to agree to disagree but I strongly disagree on both points. A clean slate is not the solution and it didn't work. And, I do care about these characters!

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 04:05 PM   #567
Agent Richard07
Retired
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

species5618 wrote: View Post
Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
vampgrrl wrote: View Post
I dont think they spoke English at all. Nor was Galactica written in English...but it was used to make the story workable and accessible to viewers.
I thought that at first too. It's a widely used convention in science fiction. This time though I can accept that the Colonials actually were speaking english and had the same written language we do. Pretty much everything we have and use was developed before, so why not language as well?
I suppose if their architecture, music, system of government, cars, clothing (I could go on here...) are all similar to ours, why not language and writing as well?

Unless they weren't really driving Hummers and wearing suits, and those elements too were 'translated' from some alien equivalent for the viewer's benefit. I don't think so, though. I think somehow (and I refuse to speculate beyond 'somehow') culture, language and all the rest was passed down through the ages.
According to Ron Moore, all these different human civilazations had hummers, suits & ties and the same music because they all drew from the same "creative ether" or "collective unconscious" when they developed them. I like that it's all literal with an explanation rather than something done for the viewer's benefit.
Agent Richard07 is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 04:14 PM   #568
Ryan Thomas Riddle
Rear Admiral
 
Ryan Thomas Riddle's Avatar
 
Location: The Bay Area
View Ryan Thomas Riddle's Twitter Profile
Re: Was the ending realistic?

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
What's "realistic" in a fictional story? Certainly, BSG was naturalistic but it was hardly realistic from its premise.

The ending is certainly naturalistic and plausible within context of the fictional world of BSG, the hardships endured by the characters and the surviving "society."

It worked for me.
Really?! A fleet that was ready to mutiny at any time. A fleet that had no consensus on pretty much anything. Suddenly you're willing to believe that they'll give up their technology?!

Dude, if you'll buy that, I've got this bridge for sale . . . [licks chops]

Mr Awe
Yes, really!

Keep your frakkin' bridge. I'm not in the market for one, especially from someone who has a hard time acepting that others find the ending plausible in context of the fiction that has been created over the course of four years.

They mutinied and bickered over equipment because, at the time, there was no hope, no planet to settle, and the prospect of spending their entire lives in those flying tin cans. Before that they had some hope and it was shattered by the discovery of Cylon Earth. Their dreams were torn asunder.

Moreover, the series has showed us that the Colonials have clung onto their lives Before the Fall. A few examples: establishing a Quorum; adhering to Colonial military traditions and laws; the jobs they held before the attacks, like the gardners and such on Cloud Nine; presidential elections and the presidency; Colonial designations such as Caprica, Tauron, etc.; and the hierarchy of that society.

And in the background, growing over the four years, this idea that things must change or "all of this has happened and will happen again." For example: Zarek's ideas from the first season on how society has to be redefined and how it was impossible to maintain that lifestyle (he may have been an egotistical ass with delusions of martyrdom but he had a point); Lee's speech at Baltar's trial; the outlaw of abortion; the dangers of vocational inheritance in "Dirty Hands"; and Lee's notion that a new Quorum should be ship-based representation not colony-based.

Because of these examples that I've listed, I do believe that the Colonials once they had planetfall, and particularly this Eden, would be perfectly willing to abandon that which overly complicated their lives and destroyed their civilization. And that there would be a final epiphany... of letting go of their previous lives... the death of the Colonial way of life. And as in Baltar's speech to Cavil, stop the cycle at birth -- in this case, rebirth.

Granted, we didn't get the interstitial conversations and debates that no doubt took place between Lee's proposal in "Daybreak, II" and the acceptance by the fleet. Then again, it wasn't important to moving the story to show that. That it happened was the only thing that needed to be shown from a writerly stand-point, imao.
__________________
A mild-mannered reporter

Last edited by Ryan Thomas Riddle; March 24 2009 at 06:39 PM.
Ryan Thomas Riddle is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 06:20 PM   #569
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was the ending realistic?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
What's "realistic" in a fictional story? Certainly, BSG was naturalistic but it was hardly realistic from its premise.

The ending is certainly naturalistic and plausible within context of the fictional world of BSG, the hardships endured by the characters and the surviving "society."

It worked for me.
Really?! A fleet that was ready to mutiny at any time. A fleet that had no consensus on pretty much anything. Suddenly you're willing to believe that they'll give up their technology?!

Dude, if you'll buy that, I've got this bridge for sale . . . [licks chops]

Mr Awe
Yes, really!
Well, we disagree, to say the least. I'm glad you enjoyed the series. I did overall but obviously have a few more issues over the finale than you.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline  
Old March 24 2009, 06:39 PM   #570
Ryan Thomas Riddle
Rear Admiral
 
Ryan Thomas Riddle's Avatar
 
Location: The Bay Area
View Ryan Thomas Riddle's Twitter Profile
Re: Was the ending realistic?

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post

Really?! A fleet that was ready to mutiny at any time. A fleet that had no consensus on pretty much anything. Suddenly you're willing to believe that they'll give up their technology?!

Dude, if you'll buy that, I've got this bridge for sale . . . [licks chops]

Mr Awe
Yes, really!
Well, we disagree, to say the least. I'm glad you enjoyed the series. I did overall but obviously have a few more issues over the finale than you.

Mr Awe
Which I'm fine with and I did state that it "worked for me." I accept that people disagree with the finale, but it was you who insisted on the snark and who seemed to have a "problem" with those who don't come to the same conclusions as you.

I replied in kind and with a detailed, critical analysis of how I found the finale both naturalistic and plausible within context of the fictional world of BSG.

Moreover my other post began with a rhetorical -- what is "realistic" in a fictional story? Certainly, BSG isn't realism by any means, not certainly in the artistic sense as it does not show us the mundane of our daily lives and the world as we know it. It uses the prism of fiction to discuss the things in the zeitgeist, but it presents it in a naturalistic and plausible manner in context of its own world. Naturalistic storytelling and realism (not realistic) storytelling are two different beasts with a great deal of similarity.
__________________
A mild-mannered reporter

Last edited by Ryan Thomas Riddle; March 24 2009 at 08:34 PM.
Ryan Thomas Riddle is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Tags
cylons, daybreak, grading & discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.