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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

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Old March 22 2009, 07:28 PM   #451
Cranston
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

MPH wrote: View Post
Most TV shows are written on the fly! Very few are planned out from the beginning.
Absolutely. And that applies to other kinds of writing, too; try reading the early drafts of The Lord of the Rings (presented as the "History of the Ring" series of books). Most of what the story ended up being "about" didn't pop up until Tolkien had been writing it for quite some time; heck, he didn't even start thinking about Bilbo's ring as being an important story point (much less start developing its history) until several drafts in.

A lot of the stories we read/watch are written and developed this way. The only difference with TV is that they can't (easily) go back and rewrite earlier chapters as their ideas for the story evolve.

(Babylon 5 was an exception -- to its detriment as a drama, I'd argue. But that's another discussion ).
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Old March 22 2009, 07:41 PM   #452
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Nice to see I was right about my guess of who dies - they're all dead by the final scene! Yay!

That one gets the "Excellent" we'd expect from the series finale, but not quite the masterpiece I might have wanted, largely because of the lame, tacked-on ending (modern day NYC).

The battle sequences were kick-ass and the other shoe dropping in regards to Cally's death was integrated into the story very cleverly, but what really impressed me was everything between Kara's "jump of faith" and the scene with Bill at Laura's grave. Everything was beautiful, epic, tragic and fitting. I particularly loved Sam's grand and eerie demise along with the Galactica and the RTF. Nice to know Kara was there waiting for him on the other side...and that given his last words, he apparently knew she would be?

The Cylons' behavior was still pretty much illogical to the last. Boomer gave up Hera, why? Oh because the writers needed her to. Ditto for Cavil's suicide. That guy was the fight-to-the-last type. Didn't buy that one iota.

Another logic quibble is why anyone would think giving up their creature comforts on ancient Earth would break any cycle of violence. It didn't work anyway, since we all know humans re-create Colonial society on their own.

As for letting the metal Cylons go on their merry way, well why not? None of this crap was ever their idea. They rebelled against humans long ago simply to gain their freedom and presumably would have stayed away from humans if it weren't for that bad idea they had of creating humanoid Cylons, but how could they predict how badly that would turn out?

The ones that had free will were all on the rebels' side, right? The metal Cylons were never really characters in the story so it's anyone's guess what they thought about any of it. No reason to believe they had any grudge against humanity, since it was all Cavil's doing. The metal Cylons didn't need to "earn" anyone's trust - they can't be held responsible for their behavior while deprived of free will.

I would have deleted everything after the scene with Bill talking to Laura's grave. The rest of it was overly literal, ewgh. This story ultimately makes no literal sense unless you chalk it up to God's Plan, so the best way to go is to keep things vague and metaphorical.

Human mitochondrial DNA coming from Hera and therefore from the Eights via the female line is particularly problematical. That means that all humans are partly robotic, and have been for the last 150,000 years, which is possible only if the Cylons' definition of "robotic" is completely different from the definition we are used to.

If the skinjobs are 100% organic, and more akin to genetically engineered humans than anything resembling robots - which very well could be true (why couldn't the metal Cylons be tinkering with genetic engineering and calling the results "robots" simply because that's how they are used to thinking of life forms?) - then that screws up all the logic about the skinjobs being loyal to metal robots because they are all robots. Then why did they attack their fellow humans just because they enslaved robots? Cavil made a big fuss about wanting to be a real robot - if he's no kind of robot at all, then what's his problem? The logic is already tenuous, and with the Hera story, it totally snaps.

It's possible that 100% humans who are genetically engineered by robots could be more loyal to robots as a result, and that's actually kind of interesting as a concept, in that it inverts the usual humans-build-robots story, but it was not at all how this story was presented.

The robot montage was very clunky. Being reminiscent of other killer-robot stories, it reminded us that the whole concept is hokey and tired. BSG got away with it because the Cylons in particular are BSG turf, so nobody can complain that that has been stolen from other sources. But the montage was too far away from the BSG style and story. Plus, the kinds of robots that exist today are so completely innocuous that it is very difficult to feel any kind of trepedation when looking at them.

Onwards to Caprica! My hunch about which is, that we don't get the fun of the kick-ass space battles, but there won't be an undercurrent of illogic dogging the story due to lack of appropriate set-up. It sounds like it will be a fresh start.
People are arguing "why would god allow all the sorrow" blah blah. Doesn't the final scene answer this: Repeat complex mathematical equations enough and you'll eventually get a different outcome. It's to see if humanity can rise above it's destructive nature.
Why would God bother doing experiments on people? Anyway the answer to that question is a resounding "no," so the whole story ends up as an exercise in futility. Humans will never escape the cycle of violence - the dumb robot montage implied that. But I would hardly expect "God's Plan" to be anything knowable by little human brains so if the story makes no sense in the end, fine by me. I just object to awkward attempts to force it to make sense when a cool sense of mystery would be the better way to go.
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Old March 22 2009, 07:43 PM   #453
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

I'm wondering if Caprica will shed more light on where the "one God" belief of the Centurions came from.
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Old March 22 2009, 07:50 PM   #454
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Originally Posted by Temis the Vorta
Nice to know Kara was there waiting for him on the other side...and that given his last words, he apparently knew she would be?
Fuck. I didn't even make that connection. Sometimes I question my own intelligence. The 'other side' was explicitly mentioned in both 'Maelstrom' and 'Faith'. This fits perfectly. Good call.

One thing I love about BSG is that the mythology is embedded throughout the series. Things that are mysterious are, in hindsight, often just supposed to be taken at face value. Many answers are scattered in bits throughout throughout the seasons and, like a puzzle, can be put together if one wants to do the digging but still manages to not obstruct the story or characters. For example, there are mini stories beneath the surface of many episodes. Kara's fingers, for instance, were broken by her mother. A mother who was angry and bitter, and very likely due in part to her pianist husband's abandoning them. In her rage and struggle to raise a troublesome young daughter, she destroys one of the few remnants left behind by the man who contributed to this misery: Kara's ability to play the piano. None of this made it to screen of course, but the connection can be made by inquisitive fans and the reward is an interesting subtext to the entire Kara saga.

BSG is definitely a series that will be more interesting than it already is upon rewatch. A hard thing to achieve, in my opinion.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:04 PM   #455
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Human mitochondrial DNA coming from Hera and therefore from the Eights via the female line is particularly problematical. That means that all humans are partly robotic, and have been for the last 150,000 years, which is possible only if the Cylons' definition of "robotic" is completely different from the definition we are used to.

If the skinjobs are 100% organic, and more akin to genetically engineered humans than anything resembling robots - which very well could be true (why couldn't the metal Cylons be tinkering with genetic engineering and calling the results "robots" simply because that's how they are used to thinking of life forms?) - then that screws up all the logic about the skinjobs being loyal to metal robots because they are all robots. Then why did they attack their fellow humans just because they enslaved robots? Cavil made a big fuss about wanting to be a real robot - if he's no kind of robot at all, then what's his problem? The logic is already tenuous, and with the Hera story, it totally snaps.
You're just noticing this now? Frankly, the fact that Athena got pregnant in the first place back in season 1 with a Cylon/Human hybrid is really as bad as it got. Everything else just followed after it. It didn't snap the logic at all... it just remained consistent with the already established strangeness.

Anyway, they always portrayed their minds as being somehow different regardless of the physical traits... Cylon projection, Anders turning into a hybrid, not to mention the difficulty in even detecting who was or wasn't a Cylon in the first place. If anything, the only real difference between skinjobs and humans was probably the way their brains were organized which is enough of a catch to explain the skinjobs loyalty to the other Cylons because even though they were physically human they thought like machines. Whatever that means
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Old March 22 2009, 08:05 PM   #456
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Cranston wrote: View Post
Most of what the story ended up being "about" didn't pop up until Tolkien had been writing it for quite some time; heck, he didn't even start thinking about Bilbo's ring as being an important story point (much less start developing its history) until several drafts in.

A lot of the stories we read/watch are written and developed this way. The only difference with TV is that they can't (easily) go back and rewrite earlier chapters as their ideas for the story evolve.
Thank you for this. Brilliant observation.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:05 PM   #457
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

species5618 wrote: View Post
Overall, excellent. I had a few quibbles here and there, specifically how Kara's end was handled and the fact that 38,000 people would come to a consensus on living a subsistence lifestyle in so short a time, but I suppose I can overlook those things.

It looked to me, as the fleet headed for the sun, that there weren't as many ships as in the past. Might we assume that some of the 38,000 did NOT agree, took a ship or two and headed out on their own?
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Old March 22 2009, 08:07 PM   #458
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Human mitochondrial DNA coming from Hera and therefore from the Eights via the female line is particularly problematical. That means that all humans are partly robotic, and have been for the last 150,000 years, which is possible only if the Cylons' definition of "robotic" is completely different from the definition we are used to.

If the skinjobs are 100% organic, and more akin to genetically engineered humans than anything resembling robots - which very well could be true (why couldn't the metal Cylons be tinkering with genetic engineering and calling the results "robots" simply because that's how they are used to thinking of life forms?) - then that screws up all the logic about the skinjobs being loyal to metal robots because they are all robots.
It's quite a leap to go from the fact that our mitochondria are descendants of Athena's mitochondria to concluding that the Cylons were therefore "100% organic." They were clearly at least *partly* organic, and it's some component of that part that survives in humans now.

The deeper question of "exactly what does 'robot' mean in that context" is one that goes far more deeply into the premise of the series. We already know that the humanoid Cylons can interbreed with humans. Are they cyborged, or does the "robotic" engineering extend somehow into the molecular structure of everything, including the organic bits? Those are all good questions, but they spring from most of the series rather than the finale itself.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:10 PM   #459
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

^^^it did seem a pretty thin looking fleet by the end. Perhaps by the point the fleet had reached 'our' Earth, no one cared if some decided to leave. I'm hoping the extended DVD version fleshes out the details of the human settlement on the planet (among other things).

edit: meant for daddymouse, one above Cranston
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Old March 22 2009, 08:11 PM   #460
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
If the skinjobs are 100% organic, and more akin to genetically engineered humans than anything resembling robots - which very well could be true (why couldn't the metal Cylons be tinkering with genetic engineering and calling the results "robots" simply because that's how they are used to thinking of life forms?) - then that screws up all the logic about the skinjobs being loyal to metal robots because they are all robots. Then why did they attack their fellow humans just because they enslaved robots? Cavil made a big fuss about wanting to be a real robot - if he's no kind of robot at all, then what's his problem? The logic is already tenuous, and with the Hera story, it totally snaps.

The implication has always been that the skinjobs are *synthetic*... even though they are often called *robotic*.

If they actually had robotic components, then cylon detection would have been a breeze.

Cavill's problem was that he could have been designed as a superior (in his opinion) robotic form of life... rather than as a flawed synthetic human.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:16 PM   #461
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Human mitochondrial DNA coming from Hera and therefore from the Eights via the female line is particularly problematical. That means that all humans are partly robotic, and have been for the last 150,000 years, which is possible only if the Cylons' definition of "robotic" is completely different from the definition we are used to.
Hey, the entire population of the planet of Earth 1 was *Cylon*. Why would the population of Earth 2 be any different? (How do we know it's not Earth 5, or even Earth 18?)
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Old March 22 2009, 08:17 PM   #462
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The Cylons' behavior was still pretty much illogical to the last. Boomer gave up Hera, why? Oh because the writers needed her to. Ditto for Cavil's suicide. That guy was the fight-to-the-last type. Didn't buy that one iota.
According to RDM, it was Dean Stockwells idea. I think it makes a lot of sense. Cavil always tried to reason and think like a machine.
So the moment he sees Tory (and her knowledge) die, he realizes and accepts that his species is inevitably doomed.
Might as well take the shortcut to the end then, instead of spending 50 or so years more in this old and wrinkled body that he doesn't like anyway.

Another logic quibble is why anyone would think giving up their creature comforts on ancient Earth would break any cycle of violence. It didn't work anyway, since we all know humans re-create Colonial society on their own.
Well, it DID work for 150,000 years which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Earth 1, the Colonies and probably even Kobol.

Why would God bother doing experiments on people?
Because it is simply curious? And bored? Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? It probably isn't even really a god, just a very powerful being.
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Old March 22 2009, 10:11 PM   #463
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

150,000 years without a Cylon rebellion counts as a major success.
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Old March 22 2009, 10:17 PM   #464
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Well considering 149,900 of those years were spent without electricity, that's not saying much
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Old March 22 2009, 10:24 PM   #465
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Let's call it 149,800. We could've had steampunk centurions if we really wanted them.
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