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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 300 71.94%
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Average 20 4.80%
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Old March 21 2009, 02:16 PM   #346
Myasishchev
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

^I think I actually liked TATV better. Both were utter failures, but I didn't scream at my TV for mercy and reason when I saw the Enterprise finale. Partly, I'm sure, is that I didn't care about Enterprise as much, that stupidity was par for its course, and we knew what eventually happened anyway.

I forgot to put in the good column Roslin's death scene(s)... those were good, and if they hadn't been so badly undermined by everything surrounding them, I probably would've cried. As it stood, they were like a few drops of water in a grail of bleach.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:16 PM   #347
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Adama and Roslin, though... what was that? We didn't learn anything of interest unless seeing the Old Man puke and Roslin nail one of her former students is supposed to be compelling. They were executed fine, I just didn't see the point. Both of their final decisions were foregone conclusions.
I figured the Roslin thing for being the moment she rededicated her life to the greater good, after a moment of basking in the indulgence of personal whim after her recent loss. So that commitment is paid off as she expires.

As for Adama, it seemed to reinforce his connection to the ship, and it also ties in with the actor's statement that the character was much stronger by the end of the story than he was at its beginning. I think that strength has to do not just with the old 'my way' thinking, but being able to hold onto that while expanding his worldview (accepting Saul as cylon and still friend.)

I was quite taken with the show, though I was a little thrown by the 'toss the tech' perspective, but after a half-hour, I was good with it. The 'angels' thing seems like taking the lightship aspects of original BSG and putting them in a better perspective ... so even though I've no interest in angels (demons seem more compelling, but those are human to me), I think the whole wrapup really works, and I'm sure I'll like it better on repeat viewings (I'm remembering that I thought the ds9 finale was lame when I first saw it, but subsequent viewings have reversed that view entirely.)

The one thing I really took from the last 2 hours most strongly ... was that moment when Baltar talks Cavil down, when it looks like things are going to work out regarding resurrection tech and such ... and then it doesn't. I really REALLY think that Ron Moore remembered a little miniseries from the early 80s called WW III with David Soul and Brian Keith and Rock Hudson. It was about Russians trying to take the oil pipeline up north, and a few americans trying to stand them off. Everybody is posed with their fingers on the nuke buttons. When Soul (american commander) has most of his troops killed, the russian military guy comes down to him and tells him that in this moment, politicians aren't in charge of things, that these two men can end war ... it is one of these, 'this is too good' moments, as they shake hands, and then ... the russian's 2nd in command lobs in a grenade and kills these two brave guys, and as a result, it all reverts back to Moscow and Washington, and the miniseries ends as everybody winds up to fire the nukes.

As into military stuff as RDM purports to be, and given his age (he's a few years younger than me), I would bet he saw this miniseries, and remembered that part. I haven't seen it since it first aired (a lot of it is typical tv miniseries nonesense), but I sure do remember this one bit that worked like gangbusters.

I don't know that CAPRICA is going to be necessary, but the Olmos' directed look at the start of the war coming in fall seems totally superfluous at this point ... then again, they've surprised me a helluva lot with this series.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:17 PM   #348
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Lee Adama, the snake in the garden of Eden. But this time, the snake says "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, it's not good for you."

Here's a man who thinks it's a good idea to not build a city, to abandon technology, to start humanity afresh... and that we know for a fact, because it is our Earth, consigns hundreds of billions of human progeny to squalor, misery, pestilence, and holocaust. Lee Adama creates Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Lee Adama has the opportunity to build Heaven and casts the human race and all its children into a Hell that they'll dig themselves out of only in time to build its first Cylons... and they won't know that their days are numbered if they make the mistake of treating them as slaves, because Lee Adama in his infinite fucking wisdom destroyed history.
I'm not a big fan of the "no technology" thing but let's be honest...they barely had anything left after they arrived. They apparently could build a city but who knows if they could have sustained it. It's not Lee Adama's fault that humanity couldn't stop fighting over the years. His decision probably is what kept them alive in the long run.

Just because they know about the Cylons doesn't mean humanity still won't try to build them. They could stil frak that up royally.

Besides, the people of the Colonial Fleet seem to embrace mob rule at the drop of a hat.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:25 PM   #349
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Lee Adama, the snake in the garden of Eden. But this time, the snake says "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, it's not good for you."

Here's a man who thinks it's a good idea to not build a city, to abandon technology, to start humanity afresh... and that we know for a fact, because it is our Earth, consigns hundreds of billions of human progeny to squalor, misery, pestilence, and holocaust. Lee Adama creates Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Lee Adama has the opportunity to build Heaven and casts the human race and all its children into a Hell that they'll dig themselves out of only in time to build its first Cylons... and they won't know that their days are numbered if they make the mistake of treating them as slaves, because Lee Adama in his infinite fucking wisdom destroyed history.
I'm not a big fan of the "no technology" thing but let's be honest...they barely had anything left after they arrived. They apparently could build a city but who knows if they could have sustained it. It's not Lee Adama's fault that humanity couldn't stop fighting over the years. His decision probably is what kept them alive in the long run.

Just because they know about the Cylons doesn't mean humanity still won't try to build them. They could stil frak that up royally.

Besides, the people of the Colonial Fleet seem to embrace mob rule at the drop of a hat.
I agree. There are a lot of hurdles here. Having 30,000 some odd people all agree to become cavemen and send their ships into the sun is.. a little bit odd at first.

If you get down to basics, If you want to get different results, you have to perform different actions. Humanity has apparently had space travel technology for well over 2,000 years, and all they did with it was build cylons that rebelled on them.

The colonials also have a history of rejecting or curtailing their technology. During and after the first Cylon war, their society rejected newer technology on account of the Cylons. In this context, their rejection of modern technology makes more sense.

In my opinion, it doesn't make enough sense to justify the decision, but it's not out of context, and it as least mildly plausible that the characters would make the choice.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:32 PM   #350
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Chess Piece Face wrote: View Post
Kelso wrote: View Post


Well, perhaps I should have said that it wanted the humans and cylons to end the cycle.
Ok. That's slightly more interesting. With headsix's line about it all being numbers...that if you run a simulation long enough something random will pop up (or whatever she said). Thinking along those lines, maybe it's all a recurring experiment.

Still, I feel if they gave us a tad bit more to go on about this "god" (other than "it doesn't like to be called God) then we could have a lot more satisfying ending AND we could have fun daydreaming about what it could possibly be.
You see, I think we'll be fine this time, because we developed monotheism before we developed genocidal artificial intelligence. And because we worship the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God will not feel compelled to decimate our species with a flood of hot robots and nuclear weapons
Yeah, he seems OK with regular floods.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:36 PM   #351
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Lee Adama, the snake in the garden of Eden. But this time, the snake says "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, it's not good for you."

Here's a man who thinks it's a good idea to not build a city, to abandon technology, to start humanity afresh... and that we know for a fact, because it is our Earth, consigns hundreds of billions of human progeny to squalor, misery, pestilence, and holocaust. Lee Adama creates Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Lee Adama has the opportunity to build Heaven and casts the human race and all its children into a Hell that they'll dig themselves out of only in time to build its first Cylons... and they won't know that their days are numbered if they make the mistake of treating them as slaves, because Lee Adama in his infinite fucking wisdom destroyed history.
I'm not a big fan of the "no technology" thing but let's be honest...they barely had anything left after they arrived. They apparently could build a city but who knows if they could have sustained it. It's not Lee Adama's fault that humanity couldn't stop fighting over the years. His decision probably is what kept them alive in the long run.

Just because they know about the Cylons doesn't mean humanity still won't try to build them. They could stil frak that up royally.

Besides, the people of the Colonial Fleet seem to embrace mob rule at the drop of a hat.
They wouldn't have had 21st century standards of living, no. That's not what I'm getting at.

But what they could have had was a central government built on fair principles with a nascent industry nurtured by the scientific knowledge of individuals that in isolation will eventually disappear.

More knowledge is always better. If the finale is trying to imply that it isn't, that drinking the waters of Lethe is the adult and superior thing to do, then it is even worse than merely stupid--it's morally repugnant.

Russ wrote:
Your thoughts perfectly sum up my feelings towards this episode, especially the whole bit on Starbuck.

I sort of wanted to give the episode a score of Poor, but decided on Below Average because I thought I was being too harsh. I fear though that my opinion of the episode, and how the series as a whole ended its run, will not change much over time.

So yeah, I probably should have just stuck with Poor...
I'm getting the feeling I was too generous too. But... the beginning was awesome. If I pretend that it fades to black right after Baltar convinces Cavil to lay down his gun... then I can pretend it was a good episode.

And that deserves a very brief exegesis--what Baltar did, in talking everyone down, was a good use of God/religion/that stuff. When you use religion as a way for people to relate to each other, it's fine, can even be great. The core of the Cylon monotheism is that people (originally meaning just Cylons) should be good to each other--and if Baltar can convince Cavil, the atheist, that he should be good to people who just happen to not be Cylons regardless of whether he believes in God or not, that's fantastic. Baltar has a point and a place in "God's" (Ronald Moore's) plans.

It's better to show God in terms of how it works through human beings' metaphorical better angels than it is to show its hand tilting the great foozball table of life. Even Mel Gibson knew that, and, heck, there's less of the supernatural and ineffable in The Passion than Daybreak--and, one is now forced to admit, all of Battlestar Galactica that came before.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:43 PM   #352
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Tyrol gets a downgrade from poor decisionmaker to complete retard, surpassing his fuckup from a few weeks ago with a fuck up that dooms two civilizations to extinction. You couldn't have waited five minutes to kill her--you know, until the genocide was averted? And no one even gets mad at him for it? Tyrol: manslaughterer. And an idiot.
I don't agree. See below.

Unfortunately, an end to the cycle of violence was thrown away when Tyrol between Cavil-Cylons and the Humans and Rebel-Cylons was thrown away by Tyrol's inability to control himself.
How was "an end to the cycle of violence" thrown away?

The Cavil-Cylons got what they deserved. They got exactly what they had planned for humanity: extinction. That sounds like a pretty final end to the "cycle of violence" to me.

The Cavil-Cylons didn't deserve to get resurrection back. They were only able to extort this concession from humanity by kidnapping Hera and, ultimately, by putting a gun to her head and threatening to kill her.

All those noble sentiments from Baltar about ending the cycle of violence was just making the best of a bad situation. As a short-term tactic, to resolve the immediate crisis, it might have worked. As a long-term solution, it was both unworkable and unjust.

Does anyone seriously believe that Cavil would have abided by the terms of that treaty forever? Or that a peace which allowed the Cavil-Cylons to rebuild their civilization as if nothing had happened was a satisfactory resolution?

Tyrol's actions brought about the only really lasting peace that was possible in that fictional situation: a peace based on humanity's total victory over the Cylon genocidaires; only those Cylons who defected to the side of humanity were spared--and rightly so.

The choice Tyrol faced when he was confronted with the knowledge of Cally's murder was humanity's choice in microcosm: forgive an unrepentant murderer? Or seize an opportunity for vengeance that might never come again?

In my opinion, Tyrol made the right choice. And in so doing, he saved what was left of Colonial humanity from a corrupt bargain that had been forced on them by Cylon aggression.

Racetrack's nuclear bombardment of the Cylon colony may have lacked the dignity and formality of the Nuremberg Trials, but the sentence she executed was every bit as just, and every bit as final. Here's hoping that all the Torys and Cavils of this world come to similarly bad ends.
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Old March 21 2009, 02:51 PM   #353
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

I've skipped through some of the other comments, so maybe someone else already mentioned this, but....did anyone else get a serious "Restaurant at the End of the Universe" vibe from this episode? The part about a spacefaring civilization landing on prehistoric Earth, and running into early man, and becoming our ancestors? I was just waiting for Adama to issue a decree that leaves would be humanity's new form of currency.
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Old March 21 2009, 03:09 PM   #354
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

They wouldn't have had 21st century standards of living, no. That's not what I'm getting at.

But what they could have had was a central government built on fair principles with a nascent industry nurtured by the scientific knowledge of individuals that in isolation will eventually disappear.

More knowledge is always better. If the finale is trying to imply that it isn't, that drinking the waters of Lethe is the adult and superior thing to do, then it is even worse than merely stupid--it's morally repugnant.
Rejecting the medical technology is what I would find the most distrubing. Although that might become lost too eventually. Someone pointed out that brain surgeon a few episodes back. He's the only one left in the fleet and has limited resources left to teach another. Those kinds of specialites are going to be lost eventually.

One other thing...maybe the humans have no desire to be in a rebuilding mode. Rebuilding cities. I mean, they barely got anything built on New Caprica other than a few tents.
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Old March 21 2009, 03:27 PM   #355
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

nx1701g wrote: View Post
WeAreTheBorg wrote: View Post
steveman wrote: View Post
People noticed Moore's cameo at the end, right?
I definately noticed, but it didn't occur to me until now that that could ATUALLY BE RDM IN the actual episode, not just playing an extra. Because now this is really our Earth, and that could just be the actual human named Ronald D. Moore reading a newspaper in Vancouver, while visiting the set of the TV show he produces called Batt.... oh my head just exploded.
I had a similar thought. Remember he did want to end DS9 with Benny Russell sitting on the DS9 soundstage.
Thank FRAK he didn't!

I just saw Ronny DM's cameo and wondered if anyone else did... and if you didn't:
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Old March 21 2009, 03:30 PM   #356
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Camelopard wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Tyrol gets a downgrade from poor decisionmaker to complete retard, surpassing his fuckup from a few weeks ago with a fuck up that dooms two civilizations to extinction. You couldn't have waited five minutes to kill her--you know, until the genocide was averted? And no one even gets mad at him for it? Tyrol: manslaughterer. And an idiot.
I don't agree. See below.

Unfortunately, an end to the cycle of violence was thrown away when Tyrol between Cavil-Cylons and the Humans and Rebel-Cylons was thrown away by Tyrol's inability to control himself.
How was "an end to the cycle of violence" thrown away?

The Cavil-Cylons got what they deserved. They got exactly what they had planned for humanity: extinction. That sounds like a pretty final end to the "cycle of violence" to me.

The Cavil-Cylons didn't deserve to get resurrection back. They were only able to extort this concession from humanity by kidnapping Hera and, ultimately, by putting a gun to her head and threatening to kill her.

All those noble sentiments from Baltar about ending the cycle of violence was just making the best of a bad situation. As a short-term tactic, to resolve the immediate crisis, it might have worked. As a long-term solution, it was both unworkable and unjust.

Does anyone seriously believe that Cavil would have abided by the terms of that treaty forever? Or that a peace which allowed the Cavil-Cylons to rebuild their civilization as if nothing had happened was a satisfactory resolution?

Tyrol's actions brought about the only really lasting peace that was possible in that fictional situation: a peace based on humanity's total victory over the Cylon genocidaires; only those Cylons who defected to the side of humanity were spared--and rightly so.

The choice Tyrol faced when he was confronted with the knowledge of Cally's murder was humanity's choice in microcosm: forgive an unrepentant murderer? Or seize an opportunity for vengeance that might never come again?

In my opinion, Tyrol made the right choice. And in so doing, he saved what was left of Colonial humanity from a corrupt bargain that had been forced on them by Cylon aggression.

Racetrack's nuclear bombardment of the Cylon colony may have lacked the dignity and formality of the Nuremberg Trials, but the sentence she executed was every bit as just, and every bit as final. Here's hoping that all the Torys and Cavils of this world come to similarly bad ends.
In other words, life will always be a meaningless competition between those who can survive and those who can't. Genocide must always be repaid with genocide. Evolution need always be a vicious war of extinction, when the advent of Cylons presents an escape from precisely that paradigm... fuck, really?

No, I don't think Cavil would have accepted permanent peace with humanity based on resurrection alone--but I think he'd have begun to question his instinctive distrust of them. There could have been a peace--if the Final Five had returned to fix their children, to give them the tools for change, which is what Cavil always said he wanted from them. But they were too caught up in their flesh chauvinism to give him that.

A message that Cavil, of all people, could be convinced that peaceful co-existence is possible, is far more meaningful and interesting than the message as we have it that bad guys get what they deserve.

As for Tyrol, getting all Lenny Wants to Pet the Rabbit... yes, I get the notion that humans are fuckups. Must they be to the bitter end? BSG says: yes.
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Old March 21 2009, 03:35 PM   #357
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

WeAreTheBorg wrote: View Post
ladyheather69 wrote: View Post
I didn't read all the posts.. but i have to say I don't think they were supposed to or asked to frak the locals. They were sent out to frak each other! Saying they were going to breed with the locals was a joke.. a bad one but no truth to it. Cause i think they would be grossed out by that too.

but that i JMO

Voted Excellent!
Nope, Cottle says their DNA is compatible for breeding. Besides, there aren't nearly enough colonials left for a proper gene pool in dozens of camps around the globe.

The implications is that human genes were introduced into proto-humans on Earth at that time and that's when the human race as we know it on earth began.

True, I missed a minute or two of that scene,but that doesn't imply that right away they were going to start having sex with the locals either. It just means that there was compatible dna.

I sort of got the impression that yes, the locals and they could breed, but that they would get stuff started first with each other. And maybe when the natives were a bit more...advanced...then they would introduce themselves, so to speak, and then start breeding. I don't know... I am trying not to think that deeply about it
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Old March 21 2009, 04:14 PM   #358
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Camelopard wrote: View Post
The choice Tyrol faced when he was confronted with the knowledge of Cally's murder was humanity's choice in microcosm: forgive an unrepentant murderer? Or seize an opportunity for vengeance that might never come again?

In my opinion, Tyrol made the right choice.
One more thing that just came to mind:

Tyrol made the right choice by killing his wife's slayer.

Tyrol loved Boomer.

Athena gunned down Boomer in cold blood.

So people shouldn't get mad if, the instant he finds out what happened on the colony, he snaps Athena's neck just like Tory's!

Incidentally, this is why we have laws. To remove selective justice ("well, Athena was justified"--btw, she is not) and the vengeance factor ("Cavil deserves to die"--maybe so). It is not civilized to reduce justice to the whim of individuals. Hey, but what's so great about civilization? Lee Adama must not think too highly of it, and who are we to question him?

Anyway, I put this under the Bad column--for choices I would not have made. This is distinct from the Ugly column--choices I don't know how anyone could have made.
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Old March 21 2009, 04:15 PM   #359
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

excellent

well, the revelation of Starbuck being an angel was lame and everything truly being Gods plan was a cop out of the highest order....but, it was such a fun episode I can overlook the problems. I can handle the overbearing drama, which was actually held in check in this ep which was nice, as long as the show is fun. if BSG was this much fun during it's emo eps, it would have been a vastly superior show.

the best thing about this ep, though, was the revelation of who God was.... Jimi Hendrix!!!!!! That was fucking awesome at the end when they say God doesn't
like being called "God", then they bust into Jimi "Watchtower". Jimi truly does make the world go round
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Old March 21 2009, 04:19 PM   #360
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Words cannot describe how INCREDIBLE that final episode was.

It was so satisfying on SO MANY levels, and SO SMART.

EVERYTHING was tied up in one way or another. It put history and BSG in perspective. I mean my God that was MAGICAL.
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