"Who cares what the plot is?"

[scotthm]

sidious618 wrote:

---

No, on Friday you will be eating your words about Ron not valuing the story of BSG.

I didn't say that. He implied that.

Maybe he's just throwing us a curve. We shall see.

---------------

[bigdaddy]

Well that really explains the last several episodes, and frankly the last 2 seasons in general.

[Noname Given]

Chess Piece Face wrote:

---

In the Last Frakkin Special, Ron Moore stated:

"Who cares what the plot is? Why are we spinning our wheels with plot?"

I know I do. I know that watching the characters I love doing nothing (or the same thing) week after week is boring as shit.

If YOU think that Ron Moore should have been concentrating on both the plot and the characters during these last 5 episodes, please post here.

Or, if you think that at this late point in the game the characterizations should have been pretty much developed and it should have been either mostly plot, or a higher mix of plot, say so here as well.

And, if you disagree - if watching Adama lose it against a wall again or watching him stare at cracks in the hull over and over are fine with you - speak up as well!

Maybe you just think that was a cop out remark from a guy who couldn't solve a problem? Or maybe you just think we deserve ANSWERS after all this buildup of a plan? Maybe you think that the characterizations haven't even been that great over the past 5 episodes(example Ellen Tigh acting one way, then another, then back to the first way) to begin with!

So, if YOU care about the plot (or not) please post in this thread. Thank you.

I do care about BOTH a plot, and good characters (IMO both things are needed to make a good show). That RDM admitted in public that he doesn't care about plot doesn't surprise me as that's OBVIOUS when you watch nuBSG past the first half of season one. After that it's clear they gave up on trying to maintain a cohesive plot and just went with characters and gimmicks from that point on - IMO to the detriment of the series. Ron and the other Production staff and actors may beleive it's a 'landmark' TV series in a lot of respects and it is in that ANY OTHER network (cable or otherwise) would have canned it long before now.

Do I still watch it? Yes. Do I find it entertaining, or think it has any real re-watcability? For me - past the mini-series and season one; no.

So, why do I still watch it? Becuase I'm curious. I written a few scripts that were produced and shown to small audiences with positive and negative results; so I'm curious to see how he ends the run. But in all honesty I don't think it's well written overall. I DO understand why all the actors love it - because they DO get to play some very interestly conceived characters; and actors LOVE that kind of experimentation.

But, overall, I've found the majority of the series largely disappoint because IF they DID CARE about the plot AS WELL AS the characters, it might have been something more entertaining, and garnered a larger following without sacrificing anything.

[Robert Maxwell]

There people going again, taking what RDM says at face value.

He has made no bones about the fact that this show is about the characters. The characters are the story. The show is and has always been about what happens to them and how they deal with it. Answering questions and throwing twists at us has never been the point. It happens on occasion but it's not the heart of the show.

The back half of this season has felt aimless because these people feel just as purposeless. What do they have to look forward to? What future is in store for them? They have no idea; neither do we. The cold reality of their situation is sinking in--Earth was a joke. There is nothing left to keep them going.

It was a risky move to simply have Earth be useless and leave the fleet adrift without a cause. Their only purpose now is survival, with no specific goal besides merely living. And a lot of them probably aren't too interested even in that.

For some of them, the universe as they know it is falling apart around them. I think it's all been fascinating to watch. They all keep losing and losing and they don't know how much more they can take. I'm sure it's a far cry from those who thought we'd go barreling through startling revelations and getting plot-packed episodes.

As long as the series ends with the arcs of the major characters being concluded, I'll be fine with it. The other elements are secondary to me. I can fill in the blanks on things like the head people, Kara's resurrection, etc. We're fans, we can eke out any explanation we want.

RDM seems to be comfortable with a very organic kind of storytelling, where you don't feel obligated to answer everything and tie up every knot. Real people's lives don't work that way--why should these?

Just because the show's writers have taken a different approach doesn't make it inferior. And it's not perfect, either. It just is what it is. I, for one, will be sad when the show is over, because I won't get to spend time with these characters anymore, and see where their lives go.

[Sharr Khan]

I can fill in the blanks on things like the head people, Kara's resurrection, etc.

This is also a misunderstanding, at least as I've understood him (and from bits and pieces the cast themselves have said). Its not that these issues are not going to be addressed/resolved, its that moving the pieces (characters) around on a chess board isn't the point, its to explore who these people are and how they react to their situation and not check off a box beside each one and say: "Now that persons plotline is tied up...".

I get the impression RDM had been "spinning his wheels" around trying to puch all the chess pieces into the right place until he realized its better left to answer those things in the context of characterization.

Sharr

[Chess Piece Face]

Robert Maxwell wrote:

---

There people going again, taking what RDM says at face value.

He has made no bones about the fact that this show is about the characters. The characters are the story. The show is and has always been about what happens to them and how they deal with it. Answering questions and throwing twists at us has never been the point. It happens on occasion but it's not the heart of the show.

The back half of this season has felt aimless because these people feel just as purposeless. What do they have to look forward to? What future is in store for them? They have no idea; neither do we. The cold reality of their situation is sinking in--Earth was a joke. There is nothing left to keep them going.

It was a risky move to simply have Earth be useless and leave the fleet adrift without a cause. Their only purpose now is survival, with no specific goal besides merely living. And a lot of them probably aren't too interested even in that.

For some of them, the universe as they know it is falling apart around them. I think it's all been fascinating to watch. They all keep losing and losing and they don't know how much more they can take. I'm sure it's a far cry from those who thought we'd go barreling through startling revelations and getting plot-packed episodes.

As long as the series ends with the arcs of the major characters being concluded, I'll be fine with it. The other elements are secondary to me. I can fill in the blanks on things like the head people, Kara's resurrection, etc. We're fans, we can eke out any explanation we want.

RDM seems to be comfortable with a very organic kind of storytelling, where you don't feel obligated to answer everything and tie up every knot. Real people's lives don't work that way--why should these?

Just because the show's writers have taken a different approach doesn't make it inferior. And it's not perfect, either. It just is what it is. I, for one, will be sad when the show is over, because I won't get to spend time with these characters anymore, and see where their lives go.

You make a lot of great points, and I agree with a lot of them. The problem is when you say this:


The characters are the story. The show is and has always been about what happens to them and how they deal with it.

My point is this:

Nothing, next to nothing, or the same thing over and over is what has been "happening to them" as of late. That is boring. That is not character development. That is not entertaining. That is not good writing.

And that's assuming you believe that the last 5 hours of a years long show is the time to develop character in the first place.

Look, I love RDM and I love BSG but this thing is LIMPING towards the finish line, and I think even his strongest defenders have to at least see that there is some sort of problem here, even if they don't think it's that big of a deal.

[archeryguy1701]

I think both are important. However, I'm wondering where people are getting the impression that 'character stuff' and plot are mutually exclusive. Why can't Moore write a bunch of character stuff that also moves the plot along? Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that Moore said he got stuck during the writing of the final assault when this happened... in something like that, I have a hard time imagining what sort of useless character stuff they could possibly do that would eat up so much time. Here's a thought: how do we know he's planning on "dropping the plot" for all, or most, of the episode? Like I said above, this quote came from when he was stuck on the final assault. What if the problem was that he was struggling to make a specific something work and he needed to change his focus to get through that particular scene/ act/ etc? It's entirely possible that people are getting worked up over a relatively contextless sentence.

I will say that I think it is an interesting, if not questionable decision to leave all of the questions until the very bitter end. It seems like a better strategy to me to answer questions along the way, unless there is one overriding answer for everything. Hopefully there won't be too much going on in this last two hours.

[Mr Awe]

It should be about 50/50. It doesn't matter if you call it plot and characters working together, characters driving the plot, or the plot driving the characters. The fact is that if you have interesting characters doing interesting things, solving larger mysteries, etc while they're also interacting, reacting, evolving, etc, the show is so much richer. If you just have the character half alone, you're missing so much. If you just have the plot half alone, you're missing so much.

I care about the plot. I also care about the characters. It's not mutually exclusive.

Mr Awe

[Sharr Khan]

It seems like a better strategy to me to answer questions along the way, unless there is one overriding answer for everything.

Bingo! You sort of hit on I think why the last couple episodes after "No Exit" haven't been filled with "answers" because everything pretty clearly all tied into some sort of overarching answer that is in some manner part of Kara Thrace's destiny.

Sharr

[Mr Awe]

sidious618 wrote:

---

There is clearly a big misunderstanding here. Plot=/=story. That whole line is being blown completely out of proportion for reasons I can't understand. Come Friday you will be eating your words.

Come on, this isn't about making people eat their words. That's petty. Let's just hope there's a great finale that we can all enjoy. Until then, it's fine for us to elaborate on our hopes and fears for the finale.

tomalak301 wrote:

---

I've pretty much made my position clear this week so I'll just say I picked the second option. I will say however that hearing Ron Moore himself say that on the BSG special last night was absolutely shocking, especially since he also says he visits forums like this one.

I was shocked too. I didn't really have many fears about the finale itself until hearing his comments. Still, the glass is half full. I've lowered my expectations based on those comments so it will be easier for the finale to exceed my expectations.

Mr Awe

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No.

I care about story and characters. Plot is not story, and is a great deal less important to the enduring value of almost any piece of fiction than the first two, IMAO.

I will be mildly disappointed if we don't discover Hera's importance. I will be massively disappointed if Gaius Baltar's story has an unsatisfying, truncated ending.

[sidious618]

Mr Awe wrote:

---

Come on, this isn't about making people eat their words. That's petty. Let's just hope there's a great finale that we can all enjoy. Until then, it's fine for us to elaborate on our hopes and fears for the finale.

I'm not making people eat their words, I'm saying that the fianle will. What's petty is taking one line of what RDM said, damning him with it and then blasting the finale when you haven't even seen it yet. That's absurd.

[CinC_UFPForces]

It seems to me that this entire thread is based off comments that are missing important context. As I remember The Last Frakkin' Special, in referring to "spinning our wheels with plot", Moore was talking about the atmosphere and productivity during a particular session or group of sessions in the writing room - relating to the finale episode.

Ron Moore was not saying, "Who cares what the plot [of Battlestar Galactica] is?".

I don't begrudge anybody their opinions about the last tranche of episodes, but Moore's been telling this story for months; it's not a kind of encapsulating theory as to why the writers took the path to the finale that they have. In any case, it seems to me that the "plot" isn't wanting; the show's mysteries will be revealed, hopefully in total, this Friday.

[Mr Awe]

sidious618 wrote:

---

I'm not making people eat their words, I'm saying that the fianle will. What's petty is taking one line of what RDM said, damning him with it and then blasting the finale when you haven't even seen it yet. That's absurd.

Spin it how you want . . .

At any rate, I don't see anyone damning the finale yet. I certainly have not. You show me where I have if you're going to accuse me of that.

Some of us are just a bit more worried than before based on RDM's own words, that's all I have said about it. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Mr Awe

[Mr Awe]

Starship Polaris wrote:

---

Plot is not story.

Relevent definition excerpts from Merriam-Webster:
Story: an account of incidents or events
Plot: the plan or main story (as of a movie or literary work)

I don't know, they sound pretty similar to me. The plot definition even includes the word story. Maybe you should call them up and tell them that their definition is wrong?

Until they change their definition, I hope you won't mind if use them interchangeably?

Mr Awe