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Old March 11 2009, 09:54 PM   #16
Kaziarl
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

iirc there was an explanation that things like water, food, objects, etc are replicated. However, this is contradicted when Picard throws a book off the holodeck and it disappears. I can't remember if there was a second explanation, but I do remember that sticking out in my mind after weasly not drying out after leaving the holodeck.
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Old March 11 2009, 10:06 PM   #17
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

Why should it be contradicted? Surely the holodeck can do both replicated and nonreplicated illusions? And surely it can unreplicate things that are no longer needed, or things that are about to perform against the rules of the program (such as flying out of the door).

The first mistake I remember catching, relating to a holodeck, is when Data and LaForge leave the 'deck after encountering Moriarty, and Geordi is aghast at the drawing he holds in his hand. When we flips it over so we can see it, it is right side up, meaning that he was looking at it upside down. D'oh!
This is a mistake in terms of the real world, yes, something they didn't catch when filming...

But consider this: Data is carrying and holding the paper in order to demonstrate it to a fellow officer. Data is planning on flipping it over for somebody to see. Surely he would then deliberately hold the paper upside down, so that it becomes rightside up when flipped!

So it's not really a mistake in-universe... Unless we want it to be.

Other than that, there are the numerous instances where characters in the holodeck go 'off-script' and notice things like Picard's Starfleet uniform. They're projections, not people - they don't have real eyes or anything; unless the holodeck is programmed to badger its users into costumes, the characters should respond to the player in the context of the story, rather than in the context of the player's reality.
I strongly disagree. The programs are interactive - the characters are supposed to comment if Picard, in the role of Dixon Hill, cracks a joke or stumbles on a body. It is only logical that they would and should comment on how Picard, in the role of Dixon Hill, combs his, uh, eyebrows, or holds his fork when eating, or dresses up. The uniform is a choice/action performed by the user, and the program exists for the purpose of responding to the choices/actions of the user!

No doubt there is a user-selectable mode where the characters will ignore certain things, and will for example accept a Starfleet uniform as period costume, or Jean-Luc Picard as a 17-year-old girl. But when the characters do comment on uniforms or the like, it is in the context of programs where no such mode was selected.

Of course, the biggest mistakes are ones where the characters begin to question their existence - on a regular basis! - the holodeck computer must be really schizophrenic to project characters that then wonder how they got there, even though they're still only running inside the same computer!
It doesn't seem right to treat the computer as some single entity where everything is interlinked. Rather, it most probably is suffering from multiple personality disorder, being at least a thousand different "people" at the same time. Some of those people/programs are sapient experts or entertainment characters. Some are stupid animals in comparison, with little or no intelligence. And the computer as a whole need not be either sapient or non-sapient: it all depends on what sort of programs it is running at a given moment in a given section of its self.

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Old March 12 2009, 05:49 PM   #18
trilbymonkey
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

One thing I never understood was the need to get changed into a costume for holodeck fun, when the computer could just as easily projected a holographic costume on them...
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Old March 12 2009, 06:57 PM   #19
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

trilbymonkey wrote: View Post
One thing I never understood was the need to get changed into a costume for holodeck fun, when the computer could just as easily projected a holographic costume on them...
Was that ever shown in any episode other than "These are the Voyages"? Changing into actual clothes would help you get into character.
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Old May 19 2015, 11:48 AM   #20
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

There are already quite a few "errors" mentioned concerning holodecks, and I will concede that it might be so that water, food, dirt, etc. are replicated instead of projected... but why would anyone do that? Food and drinks, okay, it would save time and you would not need to spend the ship's energy twice if you leave the holodeck well fed. But why the water? And even more so, why the dirt?! You might need a shower anyway if you're sweaty from the exercise, but dirt? You would have to spend the ship's energy twice, once to create the dirt, and again to wash it off...

But I admit, you might choose to do so. For whatever silly reason anyone can think of, you might... But there's one thing for which there is no explanation at all. For the story's sake, I suppose there's no getting around it, but the holodeck is way too small for most of the stories. If you're alone, the holodeck might make it seem enormous, but when we're talking about groups of people, or even just 2 persons, they're in trouble...

In the movie Star Trek: Insurrection there's an extremely large holodeck to transport the population to another world similar to their own - without all the advantages, obviously - but when Worf's brother transported the whole village on Bolaar II to the holodeck in the episode "Homeward," they traveled through an extensive grotto, with large distances between the people. That is simply impossible.

A similar situation is in Voyager episode Fair Haven. The village area is simply too large to fit in the holodeck. The system would have to be more like in "The Matrix," or even "Total Recall."

That being said - or rather, typed - I feel a bit sorry for the crew of The Original Series... They actually had to leave the Enterprise to experience adventures...
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Old May 19 2015, 12:10 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

But why the water? And even more so, why the dirt?!
Well, both of those are supposed to be tactile experiences. You want to splash yourself with water, you want to dig into that dirt and smell it. Replicating the real thing may be by far the easiest way to create the sensation the user desires!

You would have to spend the ship's energy twice, once to create the dirt, and again to wash it off...
But everything suggests the energy is insignificant. Replication is literally dirt cheap - people use it not just for creating all of their food, but all of their utensils, glassware, earthenware and napkins, too! And then they put the dishes back in the replicator for dereplication, supposedly. There is no "expenditure" or "conservation" involved, just completely carefree use.

If you're alone, the holodeck might make it seem enormous, but when we're talking about groups of people, or even just 2 persons, they're in trouble...
How so? You might run a mile while standing still. Another user might be running a different mile just twenty centimeters from you. If a hundred others wanted to join, each running their miles on different planets, the holodeck could stack some of them above your head, often three or four high considering the witnessed set heights. (It definitely has the ability - simulations often feature staircases, hills and the like.)

That is simply impossible.
Of course not. If a single person can be made to think that he is in the middle of a vast desert alone (when he is in fact inside a smallish room), then a hundred people can be made to think the same with literally equal ease.

The village area is simply too large to fit in the holodeck.
And it would be too large to fit inside your desktop monitor, too, yet you can easily play a game where you roam such a village, and more. It's all virtual: the only difference with holodecks is that there has to be enough room for the body of the user or the users somewhere within the simulation space, and even the smallest holo-rooms (at Quark's) have been shown to easily accommodate a dozen people at least.

That being said - or rather, typed - I feel a bit sorry for the crew of The Original Series... They actually had to leave the Enterprise to experience adventures...
...And often ended up on other people's "holodecks" anyway!

In the animated episodes, they had a simulation room of their own. Being larger than an airship hangar by the looks of it, this room probably had a default illusion replacing the "off" position - an illusion of being a big room!

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Old May 19 2015, 12:27 PM   #22
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

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Old May 19 2015, 01:05 PM   #23
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

I agree with Apollo on the room-size thing. Take DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" - Two entire ball teams plus spectators in a 20-by-20-foot room and each person sees their surroundings as the size of a baseball field with appropriate space between people? No. If it was hypnotic illusions in their minds, sure, why not. But it's not going to work when you have so many people crammed in the room so close together that swinging a bat will kill somebody. It's not a TARDIS.
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Old May 19 2015, 01:35 PM   #24
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

sbk1234 wrote: View Post
Honestly, I think the biggest mistake with the holodeck was using it in the first place. I never liked the idea of watching a fictional show about fictional characters role-playing fictional scenerios.

As for these being mistakes, I have to say I agree with Babaganoosh. These were all explained away within the internal logic of the program.

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Timo wrote: View Post
...Indeed, the holodeck started out as a realm that left you actually wet if you fell into its simulated water. It was some sort of baseless after-the-fact speculation that a holodeck shouldn't do that.

If the holodeck really replicates what it has to offer, or at least parts of it, it's pretty darn difficult to think of a "mistake" - because we then face a situation where things on the holodeck are real, and things on the sets and locations where they filmed the holodeck are real, so they automatically behave the same way, whilst any transition from set to set, location to location can be expected to feature discontinuities both on the holodeck and in reality.

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Ptrope wrote: View Post
The first mistake I remember catching, relating to a holodeck, is when Data and LaForge leave the 'deck after encountering Moriarty, and Geordi is aghast at the drawing he holds in his hand. When we flips it over so we can see it, it is right side up, meaning that he was looking at it upside down. D'oh!

<snip>

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trilbymonkey wrote: View Post
One thing I never understood was the need to get changed into a costume for holodeck fun, when the computer could just as easily projected a holographic costume on them...
Suspend That Disbelief!

SPCTRE wrote: View Post
And Then There Were Four... sigh

The Biggest Holodeck Mistake is that I do not have one!
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Old May 19 2015, 01:39 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

Two entire ball teams plus spectators in a 20-by-20-foot room
...Or split between Quark's at least three such rooms.

each person sees their surroundings as the size of a baseball field with appropriate space between people?
Why should this be a problem? The whole point of the holodeck is to make people see things that are not there: a big open space ought to be no more difficult than a cramped one, and indeed an open space should pose fewer demands on the 'deck as it has fewer tactile stimuli to mind.

swinging a bat will kill somebody
They brought in their real team uniforms, but we never saw anybody carry in a real bat, or even Sisko bring his favorite desktop baseball with him for that matter. And neither of the two distinct bats they actually use in the game is the one we see Sisko handle outside the holodeck!

Swinging an illusion won't kill, unless the safety settings are off.

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Old May 19 2015, 02:50 PM   #26
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

The Voyager episode Spirit Folk. At one point, Tom Paris and Harry Kim are working at a computer panel, within the program when they are lynch mobbed by the angry villagers. One of them fires a rifle which hits the computer panel, the panel shorts out and the computer voice announces "warning: holodeck safeties deactivated." So if the safeties were active, why did the bullet cause damage?

Other times this has come up people suggest the safeties only prevent injuries to people, not damage to equipment. Which seems a terrible oversight, IMO. The device which insures the safety of participants within the simulation is itself capable of being damaged by the simulation?

UssGlenn wrote: View Post
trilbymonkey wrote: View Post
One thing I never understood was the need to get changed into a costume for holodeck fun, when the computer could just as easily projected a holographic costume on them...
Was that ever shown in any episode other than "These are the Voyages"? Changing into actual clothes would help you get into character.
It was also done in First Contact. Although, I think the intent there was that the Enterprise E's holodecks were so advanced and state of the art that they could create holographic costumes for you, thereby cutting down on the need to walk around the ship in costume. TATV ignored or forgot this and thus the Enterprise D's holodecks suddenly create holographic costumes as well.
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Old May 19 2015, 03:46 PM   #27
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

Drat, I was all set to point out the stupidity of holograms disabling the holodeck safeties in "Spirit Folk", only to be beaten to the punch in the most recent post!

We could discuss the stupidity of the episode in general I suppose... The Doctor gets hypnotized by a hologram, which also seems like something the safeties should be able to block. Granted The Doctor is himself a hologram, but really...

On a different note, there's La Forge's careless creation of Moriarty. Granted the computer did what he asked for, but this seems like a case where a confirmation or command override should have been required...and might have tipped La Forge off that he wasn't doing what he thought he was doing.

Actually, given that Moriarty was able to override what they referred to as the Mortality Fail-Safe at the time, you'd think he would have been required to authorize that. IIRC that's later an issue in "Descent".
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Old May 19 2015, 06:35 PM   #28
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

DonIago wrote: View Post
We could discuss the stupidity of the episode in general I suppose...
Hell, I was annoyed the holographic villagers were made essentially aware of their status as holograms, even if through the intelligence and perspective of 19th century villagers. As one points out "one day it was raining, Tommy Paris looked up to the sky and said 'Computer, delete rain' and it was suddenly sunny!" Why are the characters aware of the changes being done to the program as they are happening? That guy should have no knowledge of it raining and from his perspective it was already sunny anyway.
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Old May 19 2015, 08:08 PM   #29
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

Kind of like their timeline is being overwritten. Yes.

Though it would be hilarious if Janeway's flame remembered that she altered him.
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Old May 19 2015, 08:27 PM   #30
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Re: Holodeck mistakes! Post your favourites...

Timo wrote: View Post
You want to splash yourself with water, you want to dig into that dirt and smell it. Replicating the real thing may be by far the easiest way to create the sensation the user desires!
As far as I can tell, all things feel real in the holodecks.

But everything suggests the energy is insignificant. Replication is literally dirt cheap
Well, that makes the earlier mention about things disappearing when thrown off the holodeck only more relevant. You can't explain the same phenomenon with 2 opposites. Not to mention the fact that the sentient Moriarty would have known this from the computer logs.

How so? You might run a mile while standing still. Another user might be running a different mile just twenty centimeters from you.
This makes even less sense. Let's just assume Worf is searching for his brother, sees him accross a mile wide river, and calls him, shouting as loud as he can to be heard on the other side, but his brother is really only 20 cms from him, and yet, he can barely hear Worf...

If a single person can be made to think that he is in the middle of a vast desert alone (when he is in fact inside a smallish room), then a hundred people can be made to think the same with literally equal ease.
That's Matrix. The holodeck doesn't work that way.

It's all virtual: the only difference with holodecks is that there has to be enough room for the body of the user or the users somewhere within the simulation space
Again, Matrix. As for your comparison with computer games: If I play - for instance - Skyrim against a friend, he has a different monitor. The holodeck is nothing like that. If 2 persons are standing face to face in Skyrim, they see eachother, no matter the distance between them. If 2 persons are standing face to face (your 20 cm?) on the holodeck, they are standing face to face on the holodeck. To make both believe they were a mile apart, the holodeck would have to change their perception instead of their surroundings.

And that's the crucial point: The holodeck doesn't change perception.

And often ended up on other people's "holodecks" anyway!
something very similar, I give you that.
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