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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old September 7 2009, 10:04 PM   #91
Vance
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Re: 1701 warp core?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Anyone want to take a stab at the hatch behind the bridge, a rectangle, I believe it's yellow with a red outline.

FJ's blueprints put a telescope there.
Easy, emergency access hatch. It's replaced in TMP with a fully-functional docking hatch/airlock.
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Old September 7 2009, 10:30 PM   #92
Cary L. Brown
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Re: 1701 warp core?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Anyone want to take a stab at the hatch behind the bridge, a rectangle, I believe it's yellow with a red outline.

FJ's blueprints put a telescope there.
In my "color coding scheme" (see post above) that is a "deployable sensor hardware" access port.

I envision some sort of telescope that can be extended out from there. I'll admit that part of why I think in those terms is that F.J. established it as such in his blueprints (or at least I REMEMBER him doing so, though I haven't just looked to check, so I could be mistaken and I might be thinking of someone else's work). But it works, as far as I'm concerned. The one on the bottom is, as mentioned, for deployment of configurable satellites.
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Old September 8 2009, 08:45 AM   #93
Mytran
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Re: 1701 warp core?

There's actually TWO hatches at the rear of the teardrop section, a yellow one and a red outlined grey one. The latter might make more sense as an airlock, since it opens out onto the surface of the saucer.
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Old September 8 2009, 04:47 PM   #94
aridas sofia
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Re: 1701 warp core?

The rectangle behind the bridge is colored the same as the circle on the keel. The circle on the keel was mentioned in an interview as being among a group of cargo and fuel hatches located in that area. But what is for cargo and what is for fuel? Since Jefferies placed the same circular hatches on the nacelles (and atop the engineering room) of his Phase II remodel of his original 1701 design, I take the circle on the keel to likewise be related to enginery. A fuel hatch of some sort -- possibly antimatter containment, possibly degenerate matter tanks. This fits the notion that the bulging belly on the secondary hull isn't mere aesthetics -- it reflects the extra fuel needed for a long mission. (In other words, a ship with more modest goals than a "five year mission" might have a more cylindrical secondary hull).

That leaves the rectangular hatches along the keel (and not marked in the warning/danger colors red and yellow) to be cargo hatches. This reflects cargo decks placement below the hangar deck and possibly extending forward to the decks above the circular fuel containment hatch.

So, where does that leave us with the yellow and red rectangular marking behind the bridge? I'd suggest that it is for supplemental fuel storage for the primary hull. It sits just forward of the long series of details that seem to be associated with the impulse engines. I believe it either reflects an original intent that the impulse drive was completely separate from what was going on in the secondary hull and required a separate fuel source, or it merely reflected the need for a backup fuel supply in case of emergency and/or separation.

I should point out that my interpretation isn't meant to comport with that of Mike Okuda, et al, as expressed in the reSFXed TOS. While I agree with some of his team's choices, I think a much better location to launch the 210 ultraviolet satellites over Deneva would have been the fantail hatch, just under the hangar. But that's just me. I'm picky.

For anyone that is interested, some of these thoughts are illustrated here.
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Old September 9 2009, 12:18 AM   #95
Captain Robert April
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Re: 1701 warp core?

The rectangles up near the bridge are airlock hatches, the upper one for deploying the ion pods we heard about in "Court Martial" (I really need to work up a good diagram for that), the yellow & red one is a simple airlock.

The ones on the secondary hull, I already described above. The reason I figured the yellow & red circle is an ejection port is because the coloring choice just screams, "STAY BACK!" And yes, this is one instance where I take issue with the choices made by Mike Okuda and his team. Having those satellites flying out of the hangar deck would've been a much more dramatic shot.

I'm still trying to figure out why they'd choose the same color scheme for an airlock. Never said it was a perfect system...
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Old September 9 2009, 01:39 PM   #96
USS Jack Riley
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Re: 1701 warp core?

Captain:

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the placement of the ion pod. I think that, in some ways, it makes sense. The only problem I have is that, as happened in Court Martial (and we have no evidence as to how often the Captain has to cut the cord of the ion pod but given it is manned it can't be that often) the ion pod is now out of the ship's control. What is to keep the ion pod from slamming into one of the nacelles, the struts or the secondary hull (based on the direction in which the ship is going, the sudden surges in direction caused by the ion storm, etc.)? With a long cord, there is the possibility that the ion pod could get wrapped up around a nacelle or a strut during deployment or during the storm itself.

Again, not disagreeing with you, just providing food for thought.
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Old September 9 2009, 03:52 PM   #97
Timo
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Re: 1701 warp core?

I'd consider it a bigger problem that the ion pod isn't close to the hiding place Ben Finney had prepared for himself. He would have to be absolutely certain that nobody would see him exit the pod and enter the maze that is Main Engineering. Sure, with the ship at yellow alert status, he would have an inkling of where personnel would be stationed - but there'd probably still be far too many blocking his path from the top of the ship to the middle or bottom. Plus there'd probably be heightened internal surveillance as well during a yellow alert, something Finney could sabotage but wouldn't want to, out of fear of the sabotage being discovered.

The location chosen for TOS-R makes good sense in this respect: it's close to the hangar bay, and we know that nobody goes there usually (since our villains or crazed heroes can readily borrow a shuttle without being intercepted). It's also one of the locations we already know to be compatible with the launching of stuff. And being at an extremity of the ship, it not only meets the above two requirements, it also serves as an instrument node that could plausibly sample the surrounding storm by extending beyond the ship's protective envelope (although the bridge location would also be good for that).

The reason I figured the yellow & red circle is an ejection port is because the coloring choice just screams, "STAY BACK!"
Agreed on that... And if the color logic holds throughout, then the yellow square at the bottom of the saucer probably ejects the antimatter tanks on deck 11 that were mentioned in "Errand of Mercy". Those tanks would in all likelihood be for loading the photon torpedoes, then.

The yellow hatch behind the bridge should eject something dangerous for this logic to hold, of course. Any ideas?

The yellow bottom circle could of course still be compatible with launching of satellites or sowing of mines or deploying of comm relays or recorder markers or whatnot, even if it also is an ejection port for a major piece of antimatter machinery. Some aircraft are boarded through their bomb bays. If there's a big hatch there for emergencies, why not also put it to good use in non-emergencies? Especially if the stuff being deployed from there is laden with antimatter (mines, high energy satellites or the like).

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 9 2009, 09:38 PM   #98
Captain Robert April
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Re: 1701 warp core?

USS Jack Riley wrote: View Post
Captain:

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the placement of the ion pod. I think that, in some ways, it makes sense. The only problem I have is that, as happened in Court Martial (and we have no evidence as to how often the Captain has to cut the cord of the ion pod but given it is manned it can't be that often) the ion pod is now out of the ship's control. What is to keep the ion pod from slamming into one of the nacelles, the struts or the secondary hull (based on the direction in which the ship is going, the sudden surges in direction caused by the ion storm, etc.)? With a long cord, there is the possibility that the ion pod could get wrapped up around a nacelle or a strut during deployment or during the storm itself.

Again, not disagreeing with you, just providing food for thought.
Actually, you just made the argument for ejecting the thing when the turbulence got too heavy, to keep the sucker from slamming into the ship.
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Old September 9 2009, 09:48 PM   #99
Captain Robert April
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Re: 1701 warp core?

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd consider it a bigger problem that the ion pod isn't close to the hiding place Ben Finney had prepared for himself. He would have to be absolutely certain that nobody would see him exit the pod and enter the maze that is Main Engineering. Sure, with the ship at yellow alert status, he would have an inkling of where personnel would be stationed - but there'd probably still be far too many blocking his path from the top of the ship to the middle or bottom. Plus there'd probably be heightened internal surveillance as well during a yellow alert, something Finney could sabotage but wouldn't want to, out of fear of the sabotage being discovered.
The setup I figured has the pod being deployed on the end of, essentially, a giant dryer hose, with a low gravity field inside which allows, in an emergency, for the occupant to just slide down the thing back into the ship. There's also a turbolift stop right there on the boarding platform, so all Finney had to do is slide down the hose and almost swan dive right into a waiting turbolift cab.


The location chosen for TOS-R makes good sense in this respect: it's close to the hangar bay, and we know that nobody goes there usually (since our villains or crazed heroes can readily borrow a shuttle without being intercepted). It's also one of the locations we already know to be compatible with the launching of stuff. And being at an extremity of the ship, it not only meets the above two requirements, it also serves as an instrument node that could plausibly sample the surrounding storm by extending beyond the ship's protective envelope (although the bridge location would also be good for that).
The problem is that the location doesn't really lend itself to the logic that it'd have to be jettisoned under any circumstances. Plus, we see it blinking on and off throughout the series, which tells me that it's just another of the ship's many running lights (and in this case, along with all the other damage the ship suffered, it blew out).

The reason I figured the yellow & red circle is an ejection port is because the coloring choice just screams, "STAY BACK!"
Agreed on that... And if the color logic holds throughout, then the yellow square at the bottom of the saucer probably ejects the antimatter tanks on deck 11 that were mentioned in "Errand of Mercy". Those tanks would in all likelihood be for loading the photon torpedoes, then.
I don't recall any mention of antimatter tanks on Deck 11. In any case, it's about the size and shape of a door, so some sort of airlock or docking port makes more sense.

The yellow hatch behind the bridge should eject something dangerous for this logic to hold, of course. Any ideas?
Like I said, there are still a few bugs in the logic...

The yellow bottom circle could of course still be compatible with launching of satellites or sowing of mines or deploying of comm relays or recorder markers or whatnot, even if it also is an ejection port for a major piece of antimatter machinery. Some aircraft are boarded through their bomb bays. If there's a big hatch there for emergencies, why not also put it to good use in non-emergencies? Especially if the stuff being deployed from there is laden with antimatter (mines, high energy satellites or the like)
I suppose there might be enough room around the antimatter injector assembly to accommodate some sort of system to boot satellites out the hatch, even if that system consists of a couple of crewmen in environmental suits. Anybody have an estimate on the size of those hummers?
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Old September 9 2009, 10:51 PM   #100
aridas sofia
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Re: 1701 warp core?

I don't like the idea of deploying the ion pod on any kind of "tether". It seems too "Gemini 4" to me, with Finney taking the spot of Ed White. The ion pod can remain in the ship but can have some sort of extension that takes physical samples from the storm. If these samples are short "lived" or the medium they are captured in is extremely fragile, they would need to be quickly collected. The guy at the top of the duty roster goes down during the storm and collects them. The dangerous part of the job would be if the storm damages the pod in some way and threatens an explosion. Then you have to eject it and the person collecting samples gets sucked out into space.

Interestingly, that idea actually fits with the imagery created by Okuda et al, which shows a "pod" located where the light switch on the 11 foot model is positioned. That light switch, to scale, would make for a mighty small pod to be climbing into.
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Old September 10 2009, 05:02 AM   #101
Captain Robert April
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Re: 1701 warp core?

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
I don't like the idea of deploying the ion pod on any kind of "tether". It seems too "Gemini 4" to me, with Finney taking the spot of Ed White.
Well, it was 1967...

The ion pod can remain in the ship but can have some sort of extension that takes physical samples from the storm. If these samples are short "lived" or the medium they are captured in is extremely fragile, they would need to be quickly collected. The guy at the top of the duty roster goes down during the storm and collects them. The dangerous part of the job would be if the storm damages the pod in some way and threatens an explosion. Then you have to eject it and the person collecting samples gets sucked out into space.
Um...if the pod is still inside the ship, and you're just sticking out an extension, like a high tech butterfly net, wouldn't it make more sense to eject the extension rather than the whole pod? In other words, let go of the butterfly net rather than jump overboard?

Interestingly, that idea actually fits with the imagery created by Okuda et al, which shows a "pod" located where the light switch on the 11 foot model is positioned. That light switch, to scale, would make for a mighty small pod to be climbing into.
Only if Finney managed to shrink down to the size of Kenny Baker. There's a nice little comparison shot in the form of the closeup on that spot, courtesy of Denise Okuda making a cameo in the window just above. That burned spot isn't big enough to house anything big enough to constitute a manned sensor pod.
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Old September 10 2009, 08:40 AM   #102
aridas sofia
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Re: 1701 warp core?

Um...if the pod is still inside the ship, and you're just sticking out an extension, like a high tech butterfly net, wouldn't it make more sense to eject the extension rather than the whole pod? In other words, let go of the butterfly net rather than jump overboard?
All I am saying is that it makes a lot more sense to have the pod be a multifunctional sensing instrument that can be outfit for ion storms. Insert the pod into the sensor, deploy it, collect the samples and get the hell away. Because, when deployed, the pod would act like a lightning rod. In this case, I've drawn it as twin antennae that create a collector field between them:



Retract the antennae and the samples return to the ship. Grab 'em and go.

Why this couldn't be done mechanically, I have no idea. If the sample collections are a big deal it might be desirable to have a human there to make the decision whether to pull the plug on the experiment if it looks like the pod is going to get fried. In any event, why a man would need to jump in a pod and dangle from a tether during an ion storm instead of having an unmanned tethered probe provide readings... that's even crazier IMO.
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Old September 10 2009, 09:36 AM   #103
Timo
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Re: 1701 warp core?

^We might tackle this biggest issue by noting that it's even bigger than you say. Not only do they send a live person to this sampling station at a moment of great danger - they send a high-ranking officer!

The list of personnel cleared to do the ion pod thing can't be long, of Finney would have to have waited for decades rather than mere years to put his plan into action. Finney himself seems to be on that short list for one of his two known attributes: either because he is Records Officer (with the required training), or because he is a Lieutenant Commander (with the required clearance or position of responsibility).

Now let's take another, parallel tack: Finney's plan requires that the ship frequently encounter these storms. Yet we only ever hear of this one encounter. And it should be simple enough to steer clear, too; Kirk attempts no evasion in the case of "Court Martial", but rather stays in until the going gets too rough and then seemingly effortlessly withdraws. All this suggests that Starfleet deliberately enters ion storms, probably for reasons of scientific study.

Perhaps only a certain number of trained scientist-officers are capable of performing the ion pod task? Finney could have been part of a duty roster that included the Records Officer (some sort of a computer wizard?), a number of Science Officers including Spock, and perhaps a number of suitably cross-trained engineers.

No doubt the research benefits the military role of the organization as well, though. Perhaps the results are an important military secret, and thus only trusted to high-ranking officers?

The idea that the "ion plates" are a short-lived recording medium that has to be recovered quickly is a relatively good one, but doesn't yet explain why a high-ranking officer would have to do the recovering; if a machine cannot be built to do it, surely an expendable crew member should be used. In the end, we might have to revert to something like David Niven's "mass counter" instrument: it's partially psychic and thus cannot be automated... But even that would leave us with the mystery of Finney's high rank. So the "requires a highly skilled observer" or "involves military secrets" approaches might have to be taken.

As for the technical nature of the pod, I suggest that it

a) is not a functional small spacecraft by itself, or our heroes might have tried to recover Finney or his body afterwards,
b) is not normally a risk for the ship, and only becomes one when activated,
c) can only be deactivated by jettisoning.

Combined with the fact that the TOS-R pimple is too small to be a small spacecraft or even a proper external crawlspace, I thus suggest that the ion pod is a balloon. That is, when studying an ion storm, the pod expands from that tiny pimple into a sphere or other suitable shape perhaps dozens of meters across, both in order to increase the sensing area and in order to accommodate internal instrumentation, and the shape cannot be collapsed and stowed again.

The throwaway nature of the instrument space would require some judgement calls from the operator: which instruments and recorders to take back inside in case of an emergency jettison? Perhaps this would be enough justification to send in a skilled live operator instead of a simple robot?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 10 2009, 09:40 AM   #104
Mytran
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Re: 1701 warp core?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
...I don't recall any mention of antimatter tanks on Deck 11. In any case, it's about the size and shape of a door, so some sort of airlock or docking port makes more sense...
Spock's actual line from the episode, following the initial battle with the Klingon ship:
"...Blast damage in decks ten and eleven, minor buckling in the antimatter pods, casualties very light."

So not explicitly saying that there's antimatter pods down there (damage could have occurred in more that one section of the ship), but certainly alluding to it.

Incidentally, that yellow square is next to another small square labelled "inspection door vent systems connections" (it's visible on the restoration photos at modelermagic.com) OK, so the writing was never seen in any episode, but neither was the bottom of the secondary hull - if we're going to allow one we ought to allow the other.
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Old September 10 2009, 02:55 PM   #105
USS Jack Riley
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Re: 1701 warp core?

[QUOTE=Captain Robert April;3382026]
USS Jack Riley wrote: View Post
Actually, you just made the argument for ejecting the thing when the turbulence got too heavy, to keep the sucker from slamming into the ship.
That is kind of what I was referring to, albeit in a rather longwided sort of way. Whether there is turbulence or not, assuming there is a tether (which TOS-R negates), the tether would have to have an attachment point not along the primary hull, but somewhere along the bottom of the secondary hull to avoid wrapping around a nacelle or some other thing that Murphy's Law would require it to do.

Where it comes out, I leave to you and those who have done far more extensive research than I, but it might be one of the labeled hatches on the underside, perhaps even the red door under the hangar bay (large for its purpose in this case, but suitable for TOS era workbees, etc.).
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