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Old February 24 2009, 08:00 PM   #1
Claudia
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Titan: And the issue of Abortion (Destiny Spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Anyway, I don't agree that Ree did anything wrong. Deanna was being quite irrational in refusing treatment; she wasn't protecting the baby by refusing, just committing suicide. She knew that, yet she did it anyway, proving she absolutely was not of sound mind. Ree's medical choice wasn't about determining whether the baby would live or die (since death was the only option short of Caeliar intervention), but about whether the mother would. I don't accept that people have a right to commit suicide. If someone swallows a bottle of sleeping pills, it's absurd to call it a breach of medical ethics if a doctor pumps his stomach against his will.
Irrational isn't the same as "not of sound mind". (And I still think had Ree given her time alone instead of pressuring her into undergoing that procedure here and now, she'd have agreed - so the fault does lie in Ree's impatience and non-empathy).

Well, there's a difference whether the patient consciously submits or refuses to submit to a treatment - or whether it's an emergency case where the patient can't be asked.

It was *her* decision whether to undergo the abortion or not. Take a patient scheduled for surgery who absolutely refuses and forbids the use of blood transfusions - doesn't make much sense to most people, but still it's his/her decision and the surgeon has to abide by it, even if that should mean his/her death...
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Old February 24 2009, 08:04 PM   #2
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea

Perfect analogy, Claudia. I need say no more; you've said it all.
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Old February 24 2009, 09:40 PM   #3
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

I agree w/ NG & C. Yes, at the time, it seemed like the baby would die, and could take her with it. But Dr. Ree also found human/Betazoid etc. babies in the womb to be "parasitic" to begin with. He didn't seem to have empathy to a woman whose baby- who she wanted dearly- was dying. Then she was sprung with the fact that that she could never conceive. Of course she wanted to hold onto the conceived child at all costs.

If it came to that, if the baby was dead, then having it removed wouldn't have been an issue if he had been more patient and calm, and let her have time to think. For Deanna, this was a tragedy- and an empath can sense her baby- its contentment, and it's pain and fear. If he had had a more trusting relationship, she could have been monitored til the end, then undergone treatment when the baby passed away safe and warm in the womb.

I agree if a baby is dying/dead with *no hope* at the end, that the mother shouldn't die with it. But I'm not sure Dr. Ree "understood" Deanna, and his reaction seemed a bit callous- can't help it, lets get it out... but she needed time, love, and understanding, and she didn't get it. And its good for Ree to have a bit of fallout from that. Love isn't mathematical. It breaks rules, it is completely illogical.
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Last edited by Marie1; February 25 2009 at 12:01 AM.
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Old February 24 2009, 11:35 PM   #4
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

I very much agree with what Claudia said and I made similar points in the past. My personal history adds to the impact that story had on me.

I have just started the book and I will read the part with Ree and Deanna mentioned here with much interest.
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Old February 25 2009, 01:18 AM   #5
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

I thought that the Ree/Deanna thing was resolved in Torrent Sea absolutely perfectly. Just a beautiful emotional arc for everyone involved, plot tangent or no.

On another note, it's interesting to me how many different reactions that whole Ree/Troi thing in Destiny caused on here. My personal reaction was "oh my God why is Troi being such a total idiot", but I've never known anyone in that circumstance, and seeing so many people that could relate react so strongly in the opposite direction (ie, "oh my God why is Ree being such an ass") really made me think. Trek books are so damn interesting these days!
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Old February 25 2009, 03:21 AM   #6
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

^TBH, at first I found her to be stubborn and hysterical, since I haven't really read TNG and just dove into Destiny. And I've never liked Troi, I found her useful... maybe once in on-screen TNG.

But I have known people who have lost babies, and just how hard that can be even years later.

SPOILERS FOR DESTINY-

In case any of you didn't read Destiny!!

!!


Then I found out Deanna had already lost a baby, that she really, really wanted one, and Riker did, and that if she lost this one, she couldn't conceive again. So her desperation to hang on to the baby made a bit more sense emotionally.

And then I didn't like how Ree dealt with her so her continued refusal made some sense. If someone thought all the unborn infants of my species were parasites to begin with I'd find their advice... a bit off. If he's that good of a doctor, wouldn't his understanding of pregnancy have a better description than "parasitic?" Blech!

Plus I found it hard to believe that, on the Titan, all of a sudden her baby could die and kill her. It was written that way for a reason of course- the emotional response etc... I didn't see why he couldn't monitor her (which he eventually did) talk really nicely to her, give her a chance to think... and when the baby was dead, have an alarm go off and fix her.

Tho TBH, the more I learned about the Caeliar, I knew what was coming and wanted Ree to back off... LOL!
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Old March 2 2009, 11:36 AM   #7
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

Abortion is a VERY touchy and controversial subject. So much so that it's being debated in Congress. I give kudos to CLB for writing it in but I wonder if you Christopher were worried about the reaction you might have gotten on it?

Also, this is the 2nd time Ree's gone nuts (Destiny was the first) wasn't their a way to try to reason with Troi without going into a frenzy?
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Old March 2 2009, 12:29 PM   #8
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

Man of Steel wrote: View Post
Abortion is a VERY touchy and controversial subject.
Wow, really!?!

Both the House of Commons and Lords were discussing and trying to push through a law on this subject a few months back, they failed of course as they wanted to reduce the time that a woman can have an abortion, from 24 weeks down to as little as 12!!!
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Old March 2 2009, 01:46 PM   #9
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Man of Steel wrote: View Post
Abortion is a VERY touchy and controversial subject.
Wow, really!?!

Both the House of Commons and Lords were discussing and trying to push through a law on this subject a few months back, they failed of course as they wanted to reduce the time that a woman can have an abortion, from 24 weeks down to as little as 12!!!
I don't think it's as much a hot topic here as it is in the USA - now if they wanted to make it hot topic, they should have had a character get knocked up, abort the kid for career reasons and not tell the father. They would have got people foaming at the mouth...
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Old March 2 2009, 02:22 PM   #10
Claudia
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Both the House of Commons and Lords were discussing and trying to push through a law on this subject a few months back, they failed of course as they wanted to reduce the time that a woman can have an abortion, from 24 weeks down to as little as 12!!!
24 weeks? A woman can abort up till the end of the 6th month, without any reason, or does the abortion at such a late stage at least depend on some kind of illness of/danger to mother/child etc.?

If the former, then that's questionable at best, because at 24 weeks an aborted fetus is potentially viable after all (it's possible for babies born prematurely as early as the 23rd week of pregnancy to survive...), therefore if there's no medical reason women (and doctors) tread quite a fine line.

I mean, if there's no medical reason, that can only be diagnosed later on, 12 weeks should definitely suffice for a woman to make a decision either way...
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Old March 2 2009, 02:24 PM   #11
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea (SPOILERS)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Both the House of Commons and Lords were discussing and trying to push through a law on this subject a few months back, they failed of course as they wanted to reduce the time that a woman can have an abortion, from 24 weeks down to as little as 12!!!
24 weeks? A woman can abort up till the end of the 6th month, without any reason, or does the abortion at such a late stage depend on some kind of illness of/danger to mother/child etc.?

If the former, then that's questionable at best, because at 24 weeks an aborted fetus is potentially viable after all (it's possible for babies born prematurely as early as the 23rd week of pregnancy to survive...), therefore if there's no medical reason women (and doctors) tread quite a fine line.
I have no idea why it is 24 weeks, that's what was decided when abortion was legalised in the UK and when HMG tried to change it last year, they failed.
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Old March 3 2009, 01:08 AM   #12
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea

Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't accept that people have a right to commit suicide. If someone swallows a bottle of sleeping pills, it's absurd to call it a breach of medical ethics if a doctor pumps his stomach against his will.
I for one do accept that people have a right to commit suicide.... if they are not doing so because of a mental illness that impairs their judgment, and if they are not members of the armed forces.

Deanna, however, is an officer in the Federation Starfleet. She therefore does not have the right to refuse medical treatment that her chief medical officer has determined is necessary for her to survive -- not unless she resigns her commission, anyway. As such, I agree that Dr. Ree did nothing wrong -- though I accept different reasons for that.
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Old March 3 2009, 03:12 AM   #13
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea

Sci wrote: View Post
Deanna, however, is an officer in the Federation Starfleet. She therefore does not have the right to refuse medical treatment that her chief medical officer has determined is necessary for her to survive -- not unless she resigns her commission, anyway.
Can you provide a source for that regulation?
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Old March 3 2009, 03:58 AM   #14
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea

Sci wrote: View Post
Deanna, however, is an officer in the Federation Starfleet. She therefore does not have the right to refuse medical treatment that her chief medical officer has determined is necessary for her to survive -- not unless she resigns her commission, anyway.
Really?

INT. SICKBAY:

DEANNA: Doctor, I'm not gonna make it...

REE: Stop talking like that! Tri-ox!

DEANNA: I'm a goner. You should be taking care of someone who still has a shot...

REE: Dammit, I'm not gonna let you die! Do you hear me? You're going to make it!

DEANNA: I hereby resign my commission.

REE: Ah, well, it was nice knowing you. Nurse, get this stiff outta here...
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Old March 3 2009, 05:08 AM   #15
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Re: Titan: Over a Torrent Sea

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Deanna, however, is an officer in the Federation Starfleet. She therefore does not have the right to refuse medical treatment that her chief medical officer has determined is necessary for her to survive -- not unless she resigns her commission, anyway.
Can you provide a source for that regulation?
It's a logical consequence of what we've already seen about Starfleet CMOs. We know that a CMO can issue an order to a commanding officer to submit to a medical examination from "The Doomsday Machine," and we know from TNG's "Violations" that a CMO has the right to issue an order to an officer, even a superior one, to submit to medical treatment.

Then there's the discussion in Gods of Night, where Dr. Ree and Commander Vale discuss the authority of Captain Riker to issue an order to Commander Troi to submit to the medical abortion in order to save her life -- and the severe conflict of interest it creates when Captain Riker is unwilling to issue such an order to this particular officer under his command because she happens to be his wife.
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