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View Poll Results: Grade the movie
A+ 49 16.78%
A 66 22.60%
A- 56 19.18%
B+ 34 11.64%
B 24 8.22%
B- 16 5.48%
C+ 13 4.45%
C 9 3.08%
C- 5 1.71%
D+ 2 0.68%
D 9 3.08%
D- 5 1.71%
F 4 1.37%
Voters: 292. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 25 2009, 09:29 AM   #751
3D Master
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
dkehler wrote: View Post
^ It is conceivable that Dr. Manhattan or Adrian himself has come up with a material that is both thin enough to wear on his hand yet be capable of stopping a bullet.

Also, it looked like there was blood to me.
I never said he couldn't, but the moment you have something that is thin, you also have something that is not thick enough to slow a bullet down slowly and trap it in the material. The moment you have something that is thin and can yet stop a bullet, the bullet simply bounces off.
But you have no problem with suspending disbelief for the Owlship or the giant Blue Man who travels through time and space?
They do not defy the laws of logic, even if they may defy the laws of physics. A thin material that can slow a bullet down and trap it though, DOES defy the laws of logic. It's the "Eating your cake and having it too" problem. The moment you've eaten your cake, it's gone, you can no longer have it. There are ways you can stop a bullet; but you can't have a material be AND thin, AND thick enough to slow a bullet down and trap it. See? The two contradict. Thin AND thick doesn't work. It's either thin or thick, but you can't have it both. Hence, it defies the laws of logic; and defying that is bad.
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Old March 25 2009, 01:07 PM   #752
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

It was made from superhyperion thread as explained by one of the notes on Adrian's desk which you can only see if you strain.
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Old March 25 2009, 05:24 PM   #753
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

3D Master wrote: View Post

They do not defy the laws of logic, even if they may defy the laws of physics. A thin material that can slow a bullet down and trap it though, DOES defy the laws of logic. It's the "Eating your cake and having it too" problem. The moment you've eaten your cake, it's gone, you can no longer have it. There are ways you can stop a bullet; but you can't have a material be AND thin, AND thick enough to slow a bullet down and trap it. See? The two contradict. Thin AND thick doesn't work. It's either thin or thick, but you can't have it both. Hence, it defies the laws of logic; and defying that is bad.
The folks at Aberdeen Proving Ground would like to introduce you to a material called shear thickening fluid.

Of course, that doesn't mean anything, considering that Adrian wasn't wearing a glove, and his hand was visibly pierced by the bullet, at least in the comics.

Somehow, Adrian caught the bullet, injuring his hand in the process. It's interesting to note that, in the comics, he placed his hand against his body, which may have armor underneath or special fabric (superhyperion thread, which may be their version of STF.)

The only problem I see is the fact that his hand should be destroyed, even if braced against bulletproof armor. Did he surgically implant or fortify his hands with something?
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Old March 26 2009, 03:28 AM   #754
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Has anyone picked up Watchmen: Tales of the Black Freighter? I got it today and I watched the second feature, Under the Hood. I thought they did a great job and I really enjoyed it. I only wish it were longer.
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Old March 26 2009, 03:57 AM   #755
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

^I got it from Netflix yesterday, but I haven't had the chance to watch it.
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Old March 26 2009, 04:48 AM   #756
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Just saw it this weekend; couldn't believe how the parts that were so faithful to the book captured the soul as well as the content, I was actually tearing up a bunch of times, in joy. I've read the book countless times, and put me in the minority that thinks the film does a better job with the resolution. the graphic novel is genuine literature, but this film is a seriously worthy adaptation. The embellishments (like the lesbian version of the ww 2 victory kiss of the nurse) were really inspired.

Between this and the BSG finale, I am telling everybody I've finally had a week that made up for December 1979 when TMP and BLACK HOLE came out (technically that year made up for itself, because APOCALYPSE NOW and ALL THAT JAZZ came out within about four months of each other, but even so ... )
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Old March 26 2009, 04:36 PM   #757
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

^I'd agree that many of the things new to the movie were the highlights (though, on reflection, the Last Supper and the VJ Kiss were cool, but senseless. Why pose the Silk Spectre as Jesus? Why, when she's kicked out of the Minutemen and then killed for being gay, would Silhouette kiss a stranger on the street?)

I've just reread the original, and I'm surprised at how much emotion there is in it, that was drained from the movie. So many beats in the comic that were weird or missing from the movie.

And the climax... in the original, the tension builds from the riot, to the discovery of Adrian, to the squid, to Manhattan's death... with the climax arguably being Rorschach's death. But the movie, in my memory, climaxes with either the sex scene (I love that pun) or with the prison riot. Everything after that is kind of bloodless and told, rather than shown. Even the bombing and the aftermath... meh. It's tragic because we're told it's tragic - no one really reacts, or is sad.

I might see it again the same reason I saw Nemesis twice - just to pinpoint where exactly it falls apart.

(Glad we're not talking about the bullet catch anymore!)
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Old March 27 2009, 01:52 PM   #758
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

I guess I'm late to the party; you guys seem to be the only ones still discussing this movie, which is a shame, because it's worth talking about. I didn't read the comic Back When, but picked it up because of all the movie hullabaloo; it drove me to see the movie. I'm glad I saw it, and (especially) glad I read it. I think by now I can spoil the crap out of this, so I'm gonna. For the record:

WARNING! HERE THERE BE SPOILERS!

The movie was very true to the core of the book, I felt. Some of the book's depth was necessarily lost, in part due to the changed ending. The whole pirate bit was no longer necessary, for example. That part was frankly tedious in the book but helped the suspension of disbelief by fleshing out part of the story that was "off-camera".

The major actors were terrific. The Comedian evoked real emotions in me. Doc "SuperEmo" Manhattan came across just right. Veigt, I felt, was perhaps a little too airy, but he spoke with conviction at times that really came across and drove his character home. Nite Owl and SS2 were played fantastically, but the characters took some collateral damage in the Hollywoodization. Rorschach, the same - but more so and less so, respective-like.

Nite Owl got my sympathy early on as a somewhat geeky, shy, pretty nice guy, limited somewhat by his insecurity and lack of goals. In the riot flashbacks, he tries, to be the voice of calm but hates confrontation and so addresses the crowds instead of the Comedian. Then, stab Snyder's eyes, he lost a lot of that sympathy. First, he was too violent and too capable in the street fight. Then, to find that Archie was equipped with lots of killin' and no squirt gun or noisemaker... well, it just seems out of character. Not that I insist on those specific tools, but Nite Owl should pack nonlethal force when it's an option.

I don't have the same objection with Specter Junior. You get the feeling, more in the movie than the book, that she's always ready to let out a little frustration the hard way. Her fighting capability meshes okay with her background, if you allow somewhat for Snyder's general excess. She does, however, lose a few points for rushing straight into Dan's arms. The sequence felt a bit forced; the book does it almost as quickly but much more naturally.

Rorschach... was indeed badass. But I felt that the movie softened him a bit (no, really!). They took out the random-bar-patron torture scenes, replacing them with an offhand comment. The child molester made a big deal about confessing, and Rorschach was kind enough to kill him quickly. And he broke down quickly with the shrink. His fighting skills, like everyone's, got cranked through the roof, which detracted only slightly from him. I felt he was much more powerful when depicted as an obsessed, somewhat paranoid, very resourceful man, who relied on fear as much as fighting prowess. His adaptive, improvisational fighting was depicted well, but lost something when he could have chosen just to kick everyone's ass with fists and feets of fury.

Cap'n Metropolis was neat, but I don't miss him much in the movie. The only advantage to having him would be to avoid having the Comedian embarrass Veigt, and that's not critical to the characters or story.

The makeup crew needs to be sent back to work in children's theaters.

The soundtrack was jarring. It was a clear attempt to force emotional resonance with Snyder's vision, and it failed. I found myself not feeling the moment, instead going "what the hell?"

The ending... the ending... I'm'a go out on a limb and say that the movie ending was very, very close to perfect without quite hitting the mark. The book's ending was very, very close to perfect but with a major flaw. Each was good for its medium, but each could have been better.

Snyder's error, I felt, was the same as his other mistakes: he overdid it. He had Veigt attack multiple cities; the disaster lost some impact by being worldwide. Moore had the right instincts to pick a single city and blow it all to hell; it's easier for the audience to feel the impact of the loss.

(The book's mistake was egregious and bothered me immediately; the octopus was partially engineered from the brain of a "psychic sensitive", and was in part a big psychic bomb. But the book never laid any groundwork for psychically sensitive people. Moore just assumed we'd accept that the world would have psychic folks, that they were recognized generally, and that somehow they had no impact on history.)

But only one thing really, really bothered me in the movie. It's a small thing, but it drove me absolutely nuts. It still does, and always will. It takes away so much from the point of the movie that it nearly ruins it:

The Watchmen.

The team, I mean. Naming the second-generation almost-team "the Watchmen" is stupid, and Snyder and the writers are stupid for doing it. It completely changes the meaning of the movie. If the team was called the Watchmen, then the movie is just a chronicle of events. If they aren't, it becomes a discussion on the nature of individuals with power and how they use it. Honestly, that change makes me wonder whether the writers or Snyder understood the book.

I liked the movie, I'm cool with the changes; I think some of it was overeager, but it was good. I'd go eight-out-of-ten if he hadn't renamed the not-a-team, but it loses two points for that. Six.
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Old March 27 2009, 04:41 PM   #759
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

trevanian wrote: View Post
Just saw it this weekend; couldn't believe how the parts that were so faithful to the book captured the soul as well as the content, I was actually tearing up a bunch of times, in joy. I've read the book countless times, and put me in the minority that thinks the film does a better job with the resolution. the graphic novel is genuine literature, but this film is a seriously worthy adaptation. The embellishments (like the lesbian version of the ww 2 victory kiss of the nurse) were really inspired.

Between this and the BSG finale, I am telling everybody I've finally had a week that made up for December 1979 when TMP and BLACK HOLE came out (technically that year made up for itself, because APOCALYPSE NOW and ALL THAT JAZZ came out within about four months of each other, but even so ... )
Tell me where you get your meds. I need that kind of smack right now.

Seriously, I'd be the first to agree that the film made inspired choices in a lot of ways (especially the ending), but now that I think about it, it's almost like TMP in terms of what went wrong.

For both films, the underlying story, most of the production design, most of the casting, and some scenes were amazing, but both needed major script overhauls, and I'd argue that someone else should have taken care of the action scenes for Watchmen, which range from irritatingly slow to fucking ridiculous.

I honestly think they could've used a professional writer here, because they tried to be faithful to the comic AND rewrite half of it, and ended up with hodgepodge of different concepts, themes, and stylistic choices. The jump cuts and slo-mo didn't help that impression, but cutting up and rewriting sections of the comic and then plastering THAT onto celluloid felt like a half-assed move, even for Snyder. I enjoyed watching it, but I wasn't really drawn into the film for the whole time. It felt like I was watching two different films cut together; one creative and entertaining (if excessively gory at times) and one a bit more subdued in presentation. Despite all the efforts to adapt the story to film format, it felt like they focused too much of the surface and not the structure.

Of course, I enjoyed Casino Royale, so I'd expect us to disagree on a few things.
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Old March 29 2009, 10:31 AM   #760
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Quothz wrote: View Post
But only one thing really, really bothered me in the movie. It's a small thing, but it drove me absolutely nuts. It still does, and always will. It takes away so much from the point of the movie that it nearly ruins it:

The Watchmen.

The team, I mean. Naming the second-generation almost-team "the Watchmen" is stupid, and Snyder and the writers are stupid for doing it. It completely changes the meaning of the movie. If the team was called the Watchmen, then the movie is just a chronicle of events. If they aren't, it becomes a discussion on the nature of individuals with power and how they use it. Honestly, that change makes me wonder whether the writers or Snyder understood the book.
The writers probably wanted to give the team a more catchy name for the movie. I've never been a fan of the name Crimebusters so I don't have a big problem with it.
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Old April 1 2009, 06:29 AM   #761
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

ugh, sooooo long. it took forever to get going, and seemed to have a lot of unnecessary character back story. I heard it was action every 40 min or so, which was about right. The back story could've easily been fleshed out over two movies (instead of going the X-Men route of spending 3/4 movie explaining who everyone was). I've not read the graphic novel, but i feel the movie was too ambitious and tried to do too much. I will give it props tho cuz I thought some plot points were gonna be left dangling, unnecessarily (such as Manhattan's first girlfriend) but they weren't. this is a movie that only needs to be seen 1-2 times a decade, max, or at least not all in one sitting (what's with all the loooong movies these days: i avoided benjamin button for the same reason as i almost missed this one).

Can someone explain to me what all the Egyptian religion was at the end?

Also, why the @#%$ did we have to keep seeing that damn blue dong every 2 minutes

Side note: I just saw it tonight, but was surprised to see it wasn't in every theatre in town while Gran Torino (awesome movie) and Taken (over-advertised for my taste, but apparently working nonetheless) still were and with multiple showings.
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Old April 2 2009, 12:13 AM   #762
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

davidant32 wrote: View Post
ugh, sooooo long. it took forever to get going, and seemed to have a lot of unnecessary character back story. I heard it was action every 40 min or so, which was about right. The back story could've easily been fleshed out over two movies (instead of going the X-Men route of spending 3/4 movie explaining who everyone was). I've not read the graphic novel, but i feel the movie was too ambitious and tried to do too much. I will give it props tho cuz I thought some plot points were gonna be left dangling, unnecessarily (such as Manhattan's first girlfriend) but they weren't. this is a movie that only needs to be seen 1-2 times a decade, max, or at least not all in one sitting (what's with all the loooong movies these days: i avoided benjamin button for the same reason as i almost missed this one).
As more time passes, it becomes much clearer that the reason that Watchmen is "failing" is, to once again draw the Serenity comparison, because it was made more for fans than for the general audience. This is not to say it can't be enjoyed by those coming in cold, but it's definitely a tougher sell. A lot of people obviously would have preferred a more action-oriented adventure, as that is what they have come to expect from the superhero genre. I get that. What Watchmen did, both as a graphic novel and as a movie, is turn the world of comic book adventures on its proverbial head. It was more successful at this as an actual comic book.... I doubt there are many who would dispute that.... but I felt (although I submit a certain amount of bias in my opinion) that the movie still gets the job done. It will undoubtably play much better on DVD, once the remaining scenes are restored. Especially since not everyone can be asked to sit for three hour periods to watch a movie they may or may not dig. Which is why the enormity of the success of the Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean trilogies came as a surprise to me.

The only thing I can really offer to counter against your argument (and this is based on personal opinion) is that the X-Men movies, which you cited (and which I also liked), were actually famous for NOT fleshing out their characters, save for Rogue, Wolverine, Professor Xavier, Magneto and, much later, Jean Grey. These are five clearly defined characters, yes, but most of the others are either faces in the crowd or shadows of their comic-book counterparts. One thing Watchmen's characters have going for them is that they are presented exactly as who they are in the original graphic novel.

davidant32 wrote: View Post
Can someone explain to me what all the Egyptian religion was at the end?
Well, he took the name of Ozymandias, which is just another name for the Egyptian pharaoh Rameses II (most famously portrayed on-screen by Yul Brenner in The Ten Commandments). Adrian Veidt had a fascination for men like him and Alexander the Great. Not sure what else to say other than that.
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Old April 2 2009, 01:52 AM   #763
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

I'd say the difference between Serenity & Watchmen is that Universal didn't promote Serenity nearly as much as they should have or could have, whereas Warner Bros. promoted the hell out of Watchmen during its opening weekend. It was the uneven split-down-the-middle critical reception and uneven fan reactions that did it in.

Caligula wrote: View Post
One thing Watchmen's characters have going for them is that they are presented exactly as who they are in the original graphic novel.
Except for Laurie, whose story arc was totally gutted. They couldn't even take 2 seconds to give us an idea of really how much she HATED the Comedian. That whole aspect was so wishy-washy that the revelation of the Comedian being her father just fell flat on its face.
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Old April 2 2009, 05:17 AM   #764
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

Part of the problem with Watchmen is that aside from the comic book fans, it isn't a well known story. Ask the general public who Nite Owl is and you'd might get a puzzled look. I remember seeing the trailer last year on some preview show and while the male host of the show was very excited, his female co-host had a confused look on her face and said she couldn't tell what the movie was about. Even though I knew I had to see her point, while many might have been oohing and ahhing over seeing Dr. Manhattan blowing apart Viet Cong troops the average viewer wouldn't know what that sequence was about.
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Old April 2 2009, 05:08 PM   #765
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Re: WATCHMEN - Movie Discussion and Grading (SPOILERS)

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Except for Laurie, whose story arc was totally gutted. They couldn't even take 2 seconds to give us an idea of really how much she HATED the Comedian. That whole aspect was so wishy-washy that the revelation of the Comedian being her father just fell flat on its face.
I just don't get that. It should have been obvious to the filmmakers that they lacked a crucial scene establishing her hatred of the Comedian. It'll probably be in the extended version, but it's exclusion in the theatrical cut baffles me.
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