RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,318
Posts: 5,352,480
Members: 24,622
Currently online: 650
Newest member: groucho900

TrekToday headlines

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 15 7.08%
Above Average 56 26.42%
Average 99 46.70%
Below Average 30 14.15%
Poor 12 5.66%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old February 23 2009, 05:14 PM   #181
EstoniaKat
Lieutenant
 
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

I saw this on another site, and it better articulates where I think BSG is after this episode than I can:
DamnYankees wrote:

Ok, I say what I am about to say as a die-hard BSG fan. My profile page calls it the best show on TV (something I should change to Lost or Friday Night Lights). I've seen every episode multiple times and I've listened to most of Ron Moore's commentaries. So here we go:

The 'greatness' of BSG ended with the episode "Collaborators" in season 3. In my opinion, that was the last episode where the entire storyline and the entire series were truly great as a coherent whole. I think Collaborators is one of the best episodes of BSG and they haven't picked the ball up since then. I think we need to admit a few big flaws in BSG.

1) 12 Cylon models. It's quite simply too many. They made this choice in the miniseries when they weren't expecting to make a whole series (IIRC), or maybe later on when Boomer admitted it in the episode she died. But regardless, it's simply too many. After a certain point, every cylon reveal has to be someone we know, and this means turning a human into a cylon. Who are the humans now? Adama, Lee, Roslin, Baltar, Starbuck (maybe). That's it. Seriously. That's all. Everyone else is a cylon or a minor character. I think this is a huge problem.

2) They made a bad choice in the Final 5. They chose the wrong characters. I was a little shocked when they did it but had faith they knew what they were doing, turning some major characters into Cylons. Well, we have 4 episodes left, and they simply haven't delivered. Tory and Anders I'm ok with making into Cylons. They fit well enough.

But Tigh? Why is he a cylon? To what end? There seems to be zero point in making him a cylon. If you listen to the audio commentaries, Ron Moore describes it as essentially his name was tossed out randomly in a writers meeting about it and everyone just thought it was a crazy idea so they would do it. Umm...no. Not working. Tigh was a great character and Michael Hogan is an astonishingly good actor. But this was a bad move.

And Tyrrol? Again, why? I've seen no benefit from it. You could have made his whole depression storyline work without that. I loved Tyroll for his humanity and his down to eath personlity. His character has been ripped to shreds. I look forward to his reconciliation with Boomer, a storyline I have wanted ever since Downloaded (the episode where Boomer wakes up back in Earth in season 2). But now that he is also a cylon and his character is essentially a different person, it means much less.

3) Ellen Tigh is a goddamm joke. Everyone knows this. And there's one simple reason she's the final cylon, and everyone who listens to the Ron Moore commentaries knows why: the people who run the show personally loved Kate Vernon (the actress). That's basically it. They were very close and friendly on the set and they hated having to let her go. So they brought her back. And it. Doesnt. Work.

Thats all I need to say in this post. I maintain that from its inception until the end of the New Caprica storyline that BSG is one of the great accomplishments in the history of TV. But since then it has lost its way.
EstoniaKat is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 06:19 PM   #182
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Sorry. Have to take this argument to task.

1) 12 Cylon models. It's quite simply too many. They made this choice in the miniseries when they weren't expecting to make a whole series (IIRC), or maybe later on when Boomer admitted it in the episode she died. But regardless, it's simply too many. After a certain point, every cylon reveal has to be someone we know, and this means turning a human into a cylon. Who are the humans now? Adama, Lee, Roslin, Baltar, Starbuck (maybe). That's it. Seriously. That's all. Everyone else is a cylon or a minor character. I think this is a huge problem.
Nonsense. Adama, Lee, Roslin, Baltar, Starbuck, Helo, Gaeta, Zarek, Dualla, Cally, Billy, Elosha, Doctor Cottle, Racetrack, Crashdown, Romo Lampkin. Yes, many of these characters are dead now, but that's par for the course for this series and it is the final season. If you want to harp about minor characters, take note that Simon, Doral, and Tory are minor characters who have had little development. D'Anna is off the show now. Daniel never appeared at all. Only three Cylons are main characters--Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders--and Anders has only been a central character for half the series.

2) They made a bad choice in the Final 5. They chose the wrong characters. I was a little shocked when they did it but had faith they knew what they were doing, turning some major characters into Cylons. Well, we have 4 episodes left, and they simply haven't delivered. Tory and Anders I'm ok with making into Cylons. They fit well enough.
Who, then, would you choose? Tyrol's Cylon nature has been essential to the arc he's taken in season four. If Tigh doesn't becomes a Cylon, nearly all of the scenes between him and Adama in the past slew of episodes couldn't exist.

3) Ellen Tigh is a goddamm joke. Everyone knows this. And there's one simple reason she's the final cylon, and everyone who listens to the Ron Moore commentaries knows why: the people who run the show personally loved Kate Vernon (the actress). That's basically it. They were very close and friendly on the set and they hated having to let her go. So they brought her back. And it. Doesnt. Work.
"Everyone" doesn't share this opinion, obviously. And the facts aren't even correct. There was a lot more reasoning behind choosing Ellen Tigh than liking the actress (and ye Gods, what a terrible reason to bring back someone--the acting was good!). Actually listen to the podcast, or read the interviews that have been posted at the Chicago Tribune these past few weeks.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 06:37 PM   #183
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Ellen Tigh is a goddamm joke. Everyone knows this.
Nope. Some of us quite like her, and all that the folks who "know" this actually know is that they have opinions.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 07:50 PM   #184
Ethros
Vice Admiral
 
Ethros's Avatar
 
Location: 1123 6536 5321
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Why do people have such a hard time grasping the concepts of "fact" and "opinion"?
Ethros is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 08:34 PM   #185
Kchunda
Commander
 
Location: DFW-DC-ATL-NYC-DC
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

I have to say after reading Jane E's comments in the interview here with Mo Ryan from The Watcher, I get it. I even get why Tyrol voted the way he did.

I get what they were trying to do, but it just came out flat.

1) the impact of Ellen coming back, how she feels now as a result of life moving on. . . Check.

2) the impact of Ellen's return on Tigh and Caprica. . . check.

3) Boomer's back with the fleet, and the only hybrid baby is Hera again, so we're back to where we started. . . check.

4) Galactica is a "blended" ship now, as is the fleet, and in order for the two species to survive we need to mingle and both humans and cylons in the fleet agree. Cavil is on the side of "Cylon purity" and wants to go more machine than man. Two sides of the argument in place, setting the stage for a final conflict. . . check.

I think I got all this the first time I watched it, but I was a little under the infuence and I guess I was mad that "nothing" really happened. So again, I get what they were doing, just felt that with 4 or 5 episodes to go, we still have a lot to cover and that just made me mad:

*What happened on Kobol/who are the original Lords?
*What is Kara and is that related to the Lords?
*What is up with "the one true God"?
*Opera house/visions/HeadPeople?
*Who will survive?
*When is BTRL going to be finished and are there any nuBSG mods for Homeworld or should I pick up HW 2 so I can go PEW PEW PEW KABOOM!

Uh, that last one is just me I think.
Kchunda is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 08:54 PM   #186
Samuel T. Cogley
Vice Admiral
 
Samuel T. Cogley's Avatar
 
Location: Hold still, Jim.
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Anyone else think that maybe whoever's left alive at the end will end up settling on Kobol as a blended society, with a small contingent heading off to search for "the Colony," to warn them what will happen if they don't treat their slaves well?
__________________
"If I didn't keep getting distracted by an avatar showing a sombrero'd dog getting his engineering hull penis substitute cut off I'd probably say that the above post was a point well made." - ITL
Samuel T. Cogley is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 08:58 PM   #187
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Kchunda wrote: View Post
*What happened on Kobol/who are the original Lords?
Who?

*What is Kara and is that related to the Lords?
The what?

*What is up with "the one true God"?
What is ever up with the One True God? Billions would like know.

*Opera house/visions/HeadPeople?
Ask Caesar's wife.

*Who will survive?
Whoever is alive at 11:00 PM on March 20th?
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 10:04 PM   #188
DBR
Vice Admiral
 
DBR's Avatar
 
Location: Yraglac, Atrebla
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Enough with the final five, already. I'm getting bored.....
__________________
Did you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real, and you're just a reflection of him?
DBR is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 10:39 PM   #189
Sharr Khan
Rear Admiral
 
Sharr Khan's Avatar
 
Location: USA Ct
View Sharr Khan's Twitter Profile
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Ellen Tigh is a goddamm joke. Everyone knows this.
Nope. Some of us quite like her, and all that the folks who "know" this actually know is that they have opinions.
I rather like Ellen myself... far more then Cally... *ducks*

Sharr
Sharr Khan is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 11:15 PM   #190
Zod
Commander
 
Zod's Avatar
 
Location: NY
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Peacemaker wrote: View Post
Presumbably they aren't all on the ships in the fleet because they've lost some ships along the way. Remember, when they crossed the stellar nursery in Season 3, they took the civies aboard Galactica and piloted the ships with skeleton crews. Some ships were lost, ergo, there isn't space in the fleet for all those civies. Plus, we know Pixis was lost in the Season 4 opener. That alone was 600 people. Some of the surviving vessels are also utility ships, like the Tylium ship. They are designed for large capacities.
I can accept that I guess, although they seemed to have lost many more people than ships. Since the mini they have lost over 10,000 people right? This "lower deck" thing seems odd in its timing. Introducing a new dynamic with 4 episodes left? And this harem thing is getting old anyway.

If we had another season I would welcome this but following a revolt in which civilians were involved (I recall somebody in the revolt episode mentioning the civilians were arming themselves) you would think the lower decks would be under martial law? Instead the admiral walks around the outer hull the entire episode alone and in the dark, no protection.

The whole episode felt strange to me, like they didn't know what to do with the hour.
Zod is offline  
Old February 23 2009, 11:22 PM   #191
Starwind
Fleet Captain
 
Location: The Canadian Rockies
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Dogstown, the civilians quartered on the converted museum flight pod, was introduced in 3x14, "The Woman King". Just one of thse "filler" episodes no pays attention to, I guess.
__________________
The Fans remember everything.
Starwind is offline  
Old February 24 2009, 12:11 AM   #192
DarthPipes
Rear Admiral
 
DarthPipes's Avatar
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Starwind wrote: View Post
Dogstown, the civilians quartered on the converted museum flight pod, was introduced in 3x14, "The Woman King". Just one of thse "filler" episodes no pays attention to, I guess.
I try not to remember "The Woman King." That episode stands as a good example why the move to 20 episodes wasn't always a good thing for BSG.
DarthPipes is offline  
Old February 24 2009, 12:43 AM   #193
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

Where is this remarkable TV series that included so few average or unremarkable episodes that it's the standard to judge against?

I'm sure someone can come up with a good example - I mean that - but I imagine that there will also be critics to be found of that series.

There is only one thing that can be produced reliably to the same level of quality, week after week, year after year: mediocrity. Every ambitious, extraordinary creation that's sustained over time falls short sometimes - and generally does so unpredictably. Franchise players miss free-throws.

There are some incredibly sucky episodes of TOS "Star Trek." There are some memorably bad episodes of "Voyager" too - but over a seven year period, most "Voyager" episodes were pretty much like other "Voyager" episodes. In its first two years "Saturday Night Live" delivered quite a few really, really bad sketches, but no one remembers them. Right now, though, the show is quite consistent...just like the four billionth McDonald's cheeseburger.

What's really sad is not good shows that sometimes go awry, it's the many never-very-ambitious efforts that nonetheless decay over time if they manage to hang on at all. The "Stargate" franchise is a perfect example of that.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old February 24 2009, 01:33 AM   #194
Gregsmack
Captain
 
Gregsmack's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

^ To honestly and truthfully answer your question, I have to enter 'The Wire' into the ring.

I would argue that it's television's high-water mark. Most shows don't even strive for what 'The Wire' has. One can probably pick out where a show like BSG has slipped up (ie: not many times, but the slip ups do exist) but you may be hard pressed to point out where 'The Wire' has failed in achieving its intended goal. It is a truly remarkable show. If you haven't seen it, I urge you to try it out. It may not be to your specific liking or interest, but I challenge you to not be impressed by what it tries and does.

Last edited by Gregsmack; February 24 2009 at 05:19 AM.
Gregsmack is offline  
Old February 24 2009, 01:36 AM   #195
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x16: "Deadlock"

You're absolutely right. The Wire has never slipped up. The Shield is a close second in that regard but the ending half of the sixth season was pretty weak.

Overall, though, BSG gets it right. Sure, every now and then there's a stinker but even one that I'm not crazy about is ten times better than most other shows. There are only two episodes that I will never watch again: Scar and Dirty Hands. I disliked both of them quite a bit. Out of, what, 70 episodes only two terrible ones is pretty damn good.
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Tags
boring, ellen tigh, final five, grading & discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.