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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 29 2011, 10:24 PM   #1
The Squire of Gothos
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So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

...than those in the US?

I'm up to season 3 of the CBS Action repeats here in the UK and the show looks so damned fuzzy, like an old VHS tape. I read somewhere it was due to the conversion from NTSC to PAL.

Any truth to that? Are we in the UK due an extra treat?
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Old September 29 2011, 10:36 PM   #2
RAMA
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

The Squire of Gothos wrote: View Post
...than those in the US?

I'm up to season 3 of the CBS Action repeats here in the UK and the show looks so damned fuzzy, like an old VHS tape. I read somewhere it was due to the conversion from NTSC to PAL.

Any truth to that? Are we in the UK due an extra treat?
Nope. PAL is usually 576i and NTSC 480i in 4:3 resolution. Because it's being taken from 35mm film, and converted to 1080p we'll both be seeing the same thing.

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Old September 29 2011, 10:38 PM   #3
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

I think that's what the Squire means. We will get the same this time round, instead of a converted version, which we are used to. So we might notice the improvement more.
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Old September 29 2011, 10:44 PM   #4
RAMA
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
I think that's what the Squire means. We will get the same this time round, instead of a converted version.

I assumed he meant because the PAL version is better...might seem bad to someone used to seeing regular PAL, but would probably look better to someone used to NTSC. I know there are reasons PAL is better other than resolution, though for most casual viewers, they wouldn't notice the difference between PAL and NTSC.

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Old September 29 2011, 11:47 PM   #5
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

What Squire meant is that NTSC->PAL conversions often look worse than the NTSC original, and PAL DVD releases are frustratingly often conversions instead of both versions being created from a single source superior to both (in which case PAL is superior to NTSC due to the higher resolution). I don't know if this actually the case for TNG (i.e. whether the PAL DVDs were created as upconversions from the NTSC DVDs, or whether both the PAL and the NTSC versions were encoded from the same source), but Squire assumes that it is, and if so, speculates that for PAL audiences the new HD version will be an even bigger step up in quality than for NTSC audiences.

Of course in truth the HD version will be so much better than either NTSC or PAL as to make any difference between NTSC an PAL negligible.
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Old September 30 2011, 12:22 AM   #6
RAMA
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Sho wrote: View Post
What Squire meant is that NTSC->PAL conversions often look worse than the NTSC original, and PAL DVD releases are frustratingly often conversions instead of both versions being created from a single source superior to both (in which case PAL is superior to NTSC due to the higher resolution). I don't know if this actually the case for TNG (i.e. whether the PAL DVDs were created as upconversions from the NTSC DVDs, or whether both the PAL and the NTSC versions were encoded from the same source), but Squire assumes that it is, and if so, speculates that for PAL audiences the new HD version will be an even bigger step up in quality than for NTSC audiences.

Of course in truth the HD version will be so much better than either NTSC or PAL as to make any difference between NTSC an PAL negligible.

The conversion looks worse I am sure, probably because of a cheap up-rezzing as you say, but all the STNG versions extant look "fuzzy". Regardless, we are all in for a revelation.
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Old September 30 2011, 12:23 PM   #7
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

The Blu-ray episodes will also probably seem slower to us as the conversion from NTSC 60fps to PAL 50fps sped the episodes up by 4.2%. The video quality of the DVDs looks just as soft to me as the original broadcasts (repeated most recently on Virgin 1, IIRC). I haven't seen the NTSC versions for comparison. I expect a notable improvement.
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Old September 30 2011, 12:34 PM   #8
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
The Blu-ray episodes will also probably seem slower to us as the conversion from NTSC 60fps to PAL 50fps sped the episodes up by 4.2%.
Slowed them down, surely?
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Old September 30 2011, 12:47 PM   #9
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Nope, it sped them up. The filmed episodes were shot at 24 frames per second, and converted to NTSC 60 fields per second by using one film frame for every two fields and duplicating one field every four fields. The conversion to PAL removes the extra fields, producing a source with 48 fps, and this is sped up by to 50 fps. It's a bit more complicated than this because NTSC is actually 29.97 frames per second.
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Old September 30 2011, 01:52 PM   #10
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Ah yes, I thought it would be a more complicated explanation than that in my head.
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Old September 30 2011, 01:53 PM   #11
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Sho wrote: View Post
I don't know if this actually the case for TNG (i.e. whether the PAL DVDs were created as upconversions from the NTSC DVDs, or whether both the PAL and the NTSC versions were encoded from the same source), but Squire assumes that it is, and if so, speculates that for PAL audiences the new HD version will be an even bigger step up in quality than for NTSC audiences.
The PAL DVDs may have not been created directly from the NTSC DVDs, but they were definitely created from an NTSC source; that's the resolution the master tapes were created at, there is no higher resolution film version available (or at least, there wasn't until the HD project was kicked off).
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Old September 30 2011, 08:47 PM   #12
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

The only problem with NTSC and 24fps material is 3:2 pulldown, causing "juddering" which is highly noticeable to me - all praise Blu-ray (and capable monitor) for true 24hz support. Having said that, all my Star Trek DVD's are the imported US versions, I'd go with juddering over PAL speed-up every time. I'm not certain, but I think the speeding up equates to something like a semitone raise in pitch on the soundtrack.
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Old September 30 2011, 09:35 PM   #13
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

This link has examples of the speed up for TNG.

http://sandbox.slysoft.com/palspeedup/comparison.mp3
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Old October 1 2011, 05:23 AM   #14
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
This link has examples of the speed up for TNG.

http://sandbox.slysoft.com/palspeedup/comparison.mp3
Wow, they are different. Although I think the NTSC version actually sounds lower than it should be, it doesn't sound like Picard as much as the PAL version does. Also, what's the reason for this change?
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Old October 1 2011, 06:46 AM   #15
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: So will UK viewers notice more of a difference with the Blurays...

Balok's Head wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
This link has examples of the speed up for TNG.

http://sandbox.slysoft.com/palspeedup/comparison.mp3
Wow, they are different. Although I think the NTSC version actually sounds lower than it should be, it doesn't sound like Picard as much as the PAL version does. Also, what's the reason for this change?
I'm tone deaf so it hardly makes any difference to me. Of course, if Jean Luc were squeaking like a chipmunk, I'd object.

See http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...79&postcount=9 for the background. It's a ubiquitous problem with NTSC to PAL conversion. The problem goes away with HD as many different frame rates are supported.
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