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Old February 16 2009, 02:24 AM   #106
The Borgified Corpse
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
From what I could tell, Echo was being presented as someone who found life unendurable because 'something terrible' happened that she felt guilty about.
I got vibes reminiscent of Darian Fawkes in The Invisible Man. (He was on death row and was presented with a reprieve on the sole condition that he submit to the Quicksilver project.)
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Old February 16 2009, 02:33 AM   #107
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

[quote=Temis the Vorta;2617576]
There are ethical issues here, but legal ones? I'm not so sure. There would be a way to arrange a Dollhouse business to avoid having to go underground.
Are you serious? I think even if the memories could be inserted without erasing existing memories this would be fairly controversial there'd be plenty of people upset that we were playing god. Combined with the fact that this is essentially killing the original person there's no way this would be legal.

Also, I'd like to point out that the ratings aren't that bad. It's apparently the best Friday night premiere Fox has had in 4 or 5 years and they were better than Terminator's ratings. Still probably not good enough to get a second season but possibly good enough for Fox to air all of the produced episodes.
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Old February 16 2009, 05:37 AM   #108
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
I also wonder whether a "sociopath" really makes the best SWAT-team type operative. That sounds like an inherently unreliable person who would be hard to integrate well into a team. Sociopaths by definition are not team players but any military operation I can envision will be highly reliant on the team-building skills of its leader and tight cooperation, communication and trust within the team. I've never been in the military, but from what people who have been have told me, a sociopath would be a highly disruptive element that would destroy the team's effectiveness.
Dave Grossman has published several articles on the subject. While people with sociopaths personality traits chafe under leadership, particularly arbitrary leadership, making them unsuited for military discipline during peacetime, they also tend to make excellent leaders in combat, don't experience the same level of fear and anxiety that most people do in combat, are not hesitant to kill the enemy, and are substantially less likely to instigate war crimes, because they aren't subject to the same psycological stresses that drive normal soldiers to such abuses.
So, it's a tradeoff between someone who would be difficult to control outside of combat and someone who would excell in combat.

The Dollhouse method has the advantage of being about to program someone with these personality traits when they are needed and then erase them when they are not.

In another thread I was trying to think of jobs that brainwashed zombies could do so much better than their non-brainwashed and much less expensive (because there wouldn't be the expense of maintaining the pricey Dollhouse facility and that fancy tech) competitors that they would be worth the price hike. Any suggestions?
Dollhouse provides a more efficient sort of deniability Not only are the Actives non-persons, but they have their memories erased after each engagement, meaning that the details of them are unlikely to ever leak out.
If they didn't brainwash them, then the business would not be illegal, so there would be no reason to keep it secret.
That's not what I meant. Let's say I'm a high ranking executive at FOX. I notice that Howie Do It is really battering Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles in the ratings and I want to do something about that. It seems to me, that the best way to reduce How Do It's ratings share would be to kill Howie Mandell. But I don't want "Fox executive assasinates Howie Mandell" to be a major headline. I need plausible deniability. Dollhouse provide me that, because the Active who performs the assasination will not remember doing it. There will be nothing to link me to the crime and no one to flip on me, and I get the ratings spike that I want just in time for sweeps.
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Old February 16 2009, 06:11 AM   #109
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

[quote=Temis the Vorta;2617576]

Also, I going out on a limb here and proposing that the reason the Dollhouse can't just hire the people who were used in contributing memories and experiences towards creating the personality templates for the Dolls is in fact because all of the people in question are already dead (like the negotiator who committed suicide).
Why would all the competent people in any given field be dead? Was there some plague that swept through the planet recently? Why aren't there any hostage negotiators left to hire who are still alive? It makes no sense that there would be a correlation between being competent in your field and being deceased. It should be the other way around (for people in dangerous professions, that is).

Being dead means, all things being equal, you sucked at your job. Even the hostage negotiator is an example: she was psychologically damaged and of course something like that would inhibit your competence. The notion that it made her a better negotiator is total bullshit. Being psychologically damaged doesn't make anyone better at highly skilled professions.
I didn't say all competent people were dead. I said that all the competent people whose memories were extracted, were dead. (As in clinically dead before the memories were extracted.) Whether or not The Dollhouse was responsible for those deaths... we'll see.

The Dollhouse has to have built a database full of skills, knowledge, & personalities through which it could use to program "actives" with composite personalities in order to operate.

I'm just putting out the idea that maybe (going with the deluded idea that these people are "helping others") the Dollhouse Database was more than likely assembled by scouring the globe, looking for experts in all fields of experience who had died (within whatever time frame is necessary for the "process" of memory/experience/personality retrieval to work)

Fringe is doing stuff a lot more weird than that at the moment.

I have no expectation that Whedon will want to explain the Technology involved, but as a central part of the show's week-to-week premise, he may have to.

Of course the idea that the Dollhouse is the central purpose of the Neural mapping Technology is also suspect. They've already stated how the idea of what the Dollhouse does doesn't make a lot of sense. So it seems to me that the Dollhouse is just a side-operation (Probably to Generate Cashflow no doubt) which developed out of the actual research for the Creation of the Neural Mapping/Transfer Technique.

More than likely the program was unsanctioned Government Black Ops Weapons Tech being developed to create the "Perfect Soldier" or some such BS when one or several of the Key Figures/Scientists went rogue or retired and then set up shop for themselves in the Private Sector.

Poof, instant Dollhouse.

Then again, it's just a theory.
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Old February 16 2009, 06:16 PM   #110
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

Technobuilder wrote: View Post
I didn't say all competent people were dead. I said that all the competent people whose memories were extracted, were dead. (As in clinically dead before the memories were extracted.) Whether or not The Dollhouse was responsible for those deaths... we'll see.
The talk of where Echo's memories in this last episode came from made it sound the memories were extracted from someone who was alive at the time, and that the Dollhouse isn't responsible for their deaths.
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Old February 16 2009, 09:18 PM   #111
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

ATimson wrote: View Post
Technobuilder wrote: View Post
I didn't say all competent people were dead. I said that all the competent people whose memories were extracted, were dead. (As in clinically dead before the memories were extracted.) Whether or not The Dollhouse was responsible for those deaths... we'll see.
The talk of where Echo's memories in this last episode came from made it sound the memories were extracted from someone who was alive at the time, and that the Dollhouse isn't responsible for their deaths.
That was my impression as well.
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Old February 17 2009, 12:08 AM   #112
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Let's say I'm a high ranking executive at FOX. I notice that Howie Do It is really battering Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles in the ratings and I want to do something about that. It seems to me, that the best way to reduce How Do It's ratings share would be to kill Howie Mandell. But I don't want "Fox executive assasinates Howie Mandell" to be a major headline. I need plausible deniability. Dollhouse provide me that, because the Active who performs the assasination will not remember doing it. There will be nothing to link me to the crime and no one to flip on me, and I get the ratings spike that I want just in time for sweeps.
Except that even though the Active who pulled the trigger might not remember doing it, the administrators of the Dollhouse would remember you hiring an Active to do it. It would still be a lot simpler to hire a regular hitman.

Technobuilder wrote: View Post
Of course the idea that the Dollhouse is the central purpose of the Neural mapping Technology is also suspect. They've already stated how the idea of what the Dollhouse does doesn't make a lot of sense. So it seems to me that the Dollhouse is just a side-operation (Probably to Generate Cashflow no doubt) which developed out of the actual research for the Creation of the Neural Mapping/Transfer Technique.

More than likely the program was unsanctioned Government Black Ops Weapons Tech being developed to create the "Perfect Soldier" or some such BS when one or several of the Key Figures/Scientists went rogue or retired and then set up shop for themselves in the Private Sector.

Poof, instant Dollhouse.
Perhaps the idea was originally somehow tied to mind transfers of whole conciousnesses, a kind of immortality. (The Emilio Estevez movie Freejack touched on this idea.)
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Old February 17 2009, 12:27 AM   #113
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Except that even though the Active who pulled the trigger might not remember doing it, the administrators of the Dollhouse would remember you hiring an Active to do it. It would still be a lot simpler to hire a regular hitman.
How so? If you hire a regular hitman, once they find the murderer you're toast. If you hire an Active, then once they find the murderer there's nothing to link them to you; the trail stops there.
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Old February 17 2009, 03:25 AM   #114
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

ATimson wrote: View Post
Technobuilder wrote: View Post
I didn't say all competent people were dead. I said that all the competent people whose memories were extracted, were dead. (As in clinically dead before the memories were extracted.) Whether or not The Dollhouse was responsible for those deaths... we'll see.
The talk of where Echo's memories in this last episode came from made it sound the memories were extracted from someone who was alive at the time, and that the Dollhouse isn't responsible for their deaths.
IndyJones wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
Technobuilder wrote: View Post
I didn't say all competent people were dead. I said that all the competent people whose memories were extracted, were dead. (As in clinically dead before the memories were extracted.) Whether or not The Dollhouse was responsible for those deaths... we'll see.
The talk of where Echo's memories in this last episode came from made it sound the memories were extracted from someone who was alive at the time, and that the Dollhouse isn't responsible for their deaths.
That was my impression as well.

Well, honestly I can see it both ways, but whenever Whedon's involved I go with less of what is "said" and more of what can be "inferred".

Now granted, it's a huge leap, and I'm probably wrong, BUT...

You never know.

Maybe the Mapping process destabilizes a personality if there's even a bit of psychological/emotional trauma already present and from then on it's just a downward spiral for the person who was mapped.

The possibilities are endless.
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Old February 17 2009, 04:59 AM   #115
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

ATimson wrote: View Post
The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Except that even though the Active who pulled the trigger might not remember doing it, the administrators of the Dollhouse would remember you hiring an Active to do it. It would still be a lot simpler to hire a regular hitman.
How so? If you hire a regular hitman, once they find the murderer you're toast. If you hire an Active, then once they find the murderer there's nothing to link them to you; the trail stops there.
But they could still link the Active to the Dollhouse and link the Dollhouse to you. Perhaps it offers an extra layer of protection but probably not so much so that it compensates for the massive expense of using an Active rather than more conventional means. I mean, people have been getting away with contract kills in the real world for years.
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Old February 20 2009, 12:44 AM   #116
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Re: Dollhouse: "Ghost" 2/13 - Grading & Discussion

very creepy...
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