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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 166 64.84%
Above Average 68 26.56%
Average 13 5.08%
Below Average 8 3.13%
Poor 1 0.39%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old February 16 2009, 02:13 PM   #271
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Sharr Khan wrote: View Post
Speaking of Ellen favorite son. Its curious that the creator of the Cylons in the series Caprica also happens to have the name Daniel (Graystone). While talking about #7 in the podcast RDM remarked "Daniel's going to be important to Caprica."Was this just a brain burp of did he let slip a crossover/spoiler?Sharr
Neither - I'd guess it's the inevitable introduction of a hook to get BSG viewers to follow on to Caprica
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Old February 16 2009, 02:38 PM   #272
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
I'm surprised by how well this episode is doing in the poll (not as good as its predecessor but still) vs. how much criticism is being levelled at it.

As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of beauty. I didn't see it coming at all, and (as far as I can remember) neither did anyone on this board, for that matter. And not, if you ask me, because it was lame but because the people who are supposed to be creative, who are professional writers and producers remained one step ahead of those who are viewers. Which is the way it should be.

I honestly cannot help but feel that some people are complaining because they've been waiting so long to complain. They've been so certain that no explanation would be satisfactory that it's very hard or near impossible to move away from that feeling.

What reinforces that perception in my mind is the apparant contradiction between how well the episode is doing in the poll vs. all the criticism I mentioned earlier. Seriously, if it's all as bad and as lame and as demystifying of the entire series as some are saying, I don't see how you can rate it Above Average or Excellent.

This episode is at the very heart and core of the nuBSG story.

You know Mr Positive, one can like the episode as a whole and still not like the actual "revelation". It's still nBSG as you know. The only thing that would make it truly bad is if the acting was truly bad, which it rarely is.

But don't confuse people's positive review of storytelling with a blanket acceptance of the actual explanation. It's a bit juvenile to say that the two are not mutually exclusive. One can criticize the content. It's the facts here, about the Cylons, that I find wanting in scope, not the narrative, in itself. I'm actually very, very interested in how this knowledge will affect the future narrative.

You're right to say that some people had built it up in their heads as to how it all would work out in the end. That they might be, at the very least, disappointed when it didn't is no surprise. Of course some may conflate that with the actual plot and have negative opinions of the episode itself. But as you yourself point out, that's only a minority.

Stockwell and Vernon turned in great performances, not unlike those Broadway, monologue type theatrical plays where the cast has only the one set (or sometimes, just a couch). Enjoyable yes, but that doesn't mean that I had to like what they were saying (in context to the nBSG 'verse). I didn't like that it all boils down to Cavil being a self-absorbed asshat, but I hung on their every word.

The Cylon story, while central to the BSG narrative, is really not awe inspiring to me. I've always been more interested in how our characters react to what they learn than the actual knowledge itself. I also often despised the whole Bajoran/Emissary thing in DS9, but some of my favorite episodes of the show feature it as a central tenet. There's so much I hate about Baltar's cult that it would take another thread to go through it all, yet I've never actually hated an episode that they've been in.

Perhaps I watch and enjoy the show differently from the way you do, but that doesn't make my way bad. I understand if you cannot distinguish criticizing content from criticizing narrative, but many others can.

I honestly cannot help but feel that some people are complaining because they've been waiting so long to complain.
You cannot help it, honestly? I've never understood why or what the whole purpose of people making generalizations about other viewers "true motives" is. Perhaps it would be best if we stuck to reviewing the episodes and not the viewers. Or, you know, you could just ask people why they feel the way they feel instead of just assuming.
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Old February 16 2009, 03:38 PM   #273
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

QCzar wrote: View Post

You know Mr Positive, one can like the episode as a whole and still not like the actual "revelation".
I suppose that's true. I just don't really understand how you can. It just seems very central to the show as a whole to me.


QCzar wrote: View Post
It's still nBSG as you know. The only thing that would make it truly bad is if the acting was truly bad, which it rarely is.
But that's not how the polls have worked in the past. If what you're saying were true, basically, not a single episode should have scored less than "Above Average" because the acting was a saving grace. Take "Hero", for example. Hogan and Olmos turned in terrific performances yet people clearly didn't like the 'revelation' in that episode and the narrative, for that matter.

It seems different here. People are wielding a lot of criticism at this thing yet it's not showing in the poll as far as I can see.


QCzar wrote: View Post
But don't confuse people's positive review of storytelling with a blanket acceptance of the actual explanation.
People are criticizing the storytelling as well. Look at the reaction to Sam talking about what happened vs. flashbacks. In fact, there's an entire thread dedicated to this.

My impression was that people are unhappy on several levels, not just in terms of the revelation though that was what stuck out most in my mind.


QCzar wrote: View Post
It's a bit juvenile to say that the two are not mutually exclusive.
Which is probably why I'm not saying it, I guess.


QCzar wrote: View Post
One can criticize the content.
Absolutely.


QCzar wrote: View Post
It's the facts here, about the Cylons, that I find wanting in scope, not the narrative, in itself. I'm actually very, very interested in how this knowledge will affect the future narrative.
I don't get it, though. The facts are part of the story. So how can you like the narrative if you don't like the facts? These facts inform just about everything about this universe that we've seen so far.

I mean cool if you enjoy it and you're stilling looking forward to what's coming. But it seems like a contradiction to me.


QCzar wrote: View Post
You're right to say that some people had built it up in their heads as to how it all would work out in the end. That they might be, at the very least, disappointed when it didn't is no surprise.
Actually, to be more precise, it's not so much people who had some kind of ending they had imagined and were really hoping for that I was talking about. It was people who had it set in their minds that no matter what the explanation would be, it would disappoint. There are a number of people around here who've stated at numerous points that they believed any explanations could only be a let down.

In other words, they were going in ready to be disappointed, having in mind all the possible lousy explanations that the writers might use to stitch it all up. But what happened here, I think (based on my recollection of what people said they thought would happen), is that we got something nobody was really expecting.

Now, if it were me going into an episode like this with that disposition, I'd have a really, really hard time coming around to liking the explanation because I'd still be so hung up on my truly believing it would be a let down.


QCzar wrote: View Post
Of course some may conflate that with the actual plot and have negative opinions of the episode itself. But as you yourself point out, that's only a minority.
I should elaborated on this point in my post. That was a mistake on my part.

For one, yes, I absolutely think it's a minority. And secondly, I can't possibly tell who might actually belong to that category which is why I didn't point out individual posters or respond directly to their posts.
I have absolutely no way of knowing if what I said is true or not, that there are people like this. But, for what it's worth, it's my gut feeling. And I do think that some people not liking it now may well come to appreciate it at a later time. Or they may never. Who's to tell?

That's why I said "I feel" or "that perception in my mind" in my original post. I don't claim that what I said is the truth. It's just the way it comes across to me. People can agree with that view or they can disagree with it.

Also, as I outlined above, some of the things you mentioned seem contradictory to me. That doesn't mean they are to other people. But they are to me, which is why I raised the point.


QCzar wrote: View Post
Stockwell and Vernon turned in great performances, not unlike those Broadway, monologue type theatrical plays where the cast has only the one set (or sometimes, just a couch). Enjoyable yes, but that doesn't mean that I had to like what they were saying (in context to the nBSG 'verse). I didn't like that it all boils down to Cavil being a self-absorbed asshat, but I hung on their every word.
Again, it seems like a contradiction to me. What they're talking about, the revelations here, are all part of the larger story. You can't just separate the facts from the story. Because if you change the facts, you also change the story.

I can certainly see how you could be rivetted and pulled in by the performances (I agree that they were great). They had me bound as well.

But for me it simply wouldn't be enough if I didn't actually hear something I liked. And the idea about Cavil, how he came to be, what his role was, how the Cylons, the Final Five and the humans are tied up in all of this, that's what really had me fascinated.


QCzar wrote: View Post
Perhaps I watch and enjoy the show differently from the way you do, but that doesn't make my way bad.
That's not what I was meaning to say at all. I apologize if that's how you perceived it.


QCzar wrote: View Post
I understand if you cannot distinguish criticizing content from criticizing narrative, but many others can.
Tell me this: If you take away all content, what then remains of your narrative?


QCzar wrote: View Post
I honestly cannot help but feel that some people are complaining because they've been waiting so long to complain.
You cannot help it, honestly? I've never understood why or what the whole purpose of people making generalizations about other viewers "true motives" is. Perhaps it would be best if we stuck to reviewing the episodes and not the viewers.
Calling into question other people's points of view is part of a debate. Otherwise it's no more than a listing of opinions. I see no problem in questioning why people view something differently as well as providing what one considers a possible explanation.

Again, as I stated above, I should have made some things clearer in my initial post. Alas, I didn't.


QCzar wrote: View Post
Or, you know, you could just ask people why they feel the way they feel instead of just assuming.
Well, it's a message board, so I knew that people would read it and respond if they wanted to (which you did). As I said above, I purposely didn't call out individual posters. I found it curious that the poll results seemed to diverge so much from what I perceived as a lot of criticism.
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Old February 16 2009, 03:55 PM   #274
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
I'm surprised by how well this episode is doing in the poll (not as good as its predecessor but still) vs. how much criticism is being levelled at it.

As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of beauty. I didn't see it coming at all, and (as far as I can remember) neither did anyone on this board, for that matter. And not, if you ask me, because it was lame but because the people who are supposed to be creative, who are professional writers and producers remained one step ahead of those who are viewers. Which is the way it should be.

I honestly cannot help but feel that some people are complaining because they've been waiting so long to complain. They've been so certain that no explanation would be satisfactory that it's very hard or near impossible to move away from that feeling.

What reinforces that perception in my mind is the apparant contradiction between how well the episode is doing in the poll vs. all the criticism I mentioned earlier. Seriously, if it's all as bad and as lame and as demystifying of the entire series as some are saying, I don't see how you can rate it Above Average or Excellent.

This episode is at the very heart and core of the nuBSG story.
I like the explanation about the Cylons and the Final Five, I just didn't like the way it was explained on-screen. I'm surprised by how well I think all of this is fitting together because until I saw this episode I thought it was all a house of cards which could never fit together and would eventually collapse. But this episode showed that you don't always need a solid foundation to build a good house.

But it was all exposition. There was an A story where two characters were explaining everything to a third character, and there was a B story where one guy was explaining everything else to an audience. It wasn't good story-telling, it was pure exposition.

If you compare this to Lost then this episode fares even worse. They had an episode in the third season called The Man Behind The Curtain and it was very much like No Exit in that it was billed as the episode where we would finally be getting answers, and we really did learn a lot in that episode. But what made TMBTC such a memorable episode was that it had a great story about Ben's relationship with his father and how he was complicit in his murder. It was a good story which just happened to key us into the show's history. No Exit barely had a story at all.
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Old February 16 2009, 04:35 PM   #275
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

GodBen wrote: View Post
I like the explanation about the Cylons and the Final Five, I just didn't like the way it was explained on-screen.
So your major complaint is really with the storytelling, not the story itself, I gather.
Interestingly, although I personally like the way it was done, I find your position easier to relate to than QCzar's, for example. I can definitely imagine not liking how an individual episode tells a story but still liking the story and what follows from there on. I find it harder to imagine not liking the story and being ok with that since it informs everything that follows and also has quite a bearing on the characters, I think.


GodBen wrote: View Post
I'm surprised by how well I think all of this is fitting together because until I saw this episode I thought it was all a house of cards which could never fit together and would eventually collapse. But this episode showed that you don't always need a solid foundation to build a good house.
It's interesting. I was pretty sure they'd make it all come together in a very good way (i.e. I'm biased but from a more positive point of view). All along, I've found they've constantly managed to surprise me in a good way, doing things I'd have never thought of myself.
Still, there was definitely some doubt in my mind, and there's still enough time for them to fall flat on their faces . I think both DS9 and nuBSG show that you can, as you said, build a house without a solid foundation set out from the beginning.


GodBen wrote: View Post
If you compare this to Lost then this episode fares even worse. They had an episode in the third season called The Man Behind The Curtain and it was very much like No Exit in that it was billed as the episode where we would finally be getting answers, and we really did learn a lot in that episode. But what made TMBTC such a memorable episode was that it had a great story about Ben's relationship with his father and how he was complicit in his murder. It was a good story which just happened to key us into the show's history. No Exit barely had a story at all.
I'm afraid I can't comment on the Lost episode since I haven't seen it. But I get the point you're making.
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Old February 16 2009, 05:31 PM   #276
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Justtoyourleft, I guess I should also apologize for not being clear. It is difficult to be clear about this, but I suppose to better clarify, I'll use an analogy in the form of a short story.

Imagine a fairytale where there is a monster that is going to eat a little boy. He skulks through the woods, hiding amidst the trees, waiting for just the right one.

One boy passes by and, upon seeing the monster, runs. But the monster does not chase him.

Another boy passes by and, upon seeing the monster, mocks him. But the monster does not chase him.

A third boy passes through the woods and the monster grimaces. He leaps from a log and snatches the boy by the collar. He yells to the boy, "Boy, I am going to eat you!"

Before the boy can cry out, the monster throws the boy into a basket. He brings the basket to his cave, sits it down upon a rock and leaves to get ready to cook him. The boy is left in the basket to contemplate why the monster wants to eat him. He first guesses that it's because he has trespassed, but realizes it can't be that because he's trespassed before. He then guesses that it's because the monster hates little boys. He also wonders if the monster simply likes the taste of little boys.

The monster comes back and opens the basket. He grabs the little boy by the collar and carries him over to a pot of boiling water. He looks at the boy's shirt and grimaces. Just before he throws him into the pot, the boy asks the monster "Why do you want to eat me?"

The monster replies, "Because you're wearing a red shirt and I hate red."

*plunk* Into the pot the little boy goes. The End.

Now, to me, that story seems charming and ironic (if a tad dark ), and I can see how a reader might be drawn to the character of the little boy and curious about the monster. But his reasons for eating the little boy are petty and shallow.

To you, thinking that the reasons for eating the boy are petty and shallow should ruin the whole story, as you can't like the story without liking why the monster did what he did. To me, that's a marginal component of the whole. A bit of content that does not spoil the entire narrative. It doesn't stop me from being engaged by the story itself.

I don't think I can be any clearer than that.
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Old February 16 2009, 05:52 PM   #277
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

BSG is my favorite show, probably of all time, so I figure that gives me license to say pretty much whatever I want, and not be labelled a 'hater.'

It was a good explanation. A very clever explanation. But it still leaves me wanting, in some respects.

Our expectations are so high because BSG has raised the bar on our expectations so much. That's a good thing.

I'll wait til the whole show is over and think about it for a while before I make my final decision.

Still the best show on television. But that doesn't make every single decision they make perfect by default.
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Old February 16 2009, 05:57 PM   #278
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

the_wildcard wrote: View Post
Agreed, quite freaky that Cavil was doing that with Ellen back in season 3. It explains Ellen's look on her face. Not just hate, which we thought was typical for humans having it for cylons, but of pure disgust.
Moreso because John was created in the image of Ellen's father. The daughter being frakked by the son who looks like her father. That gives even poor twisted Oedipus a new spin.
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Old February 16 2009, 05:59 PM   #279
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of beauty.
As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of adequacy.
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Old February 16 2009, 06:36 PM   #280
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

QCzar wrote: View Post
To you, thinking that the reasons for eating the boy are petty and shallow should ruin the whole story, as you can't like the story without liking why the monster did what he did. To me, that's a marginal component of the whole. A bit of content that does not spoil the entire narrative. It doesn't stop me from being engaged by the story itself.

I don't think I can be any clearer than that.
Thanks for the example! I think I better understand where you're coming from.
Cruel irony there, being eaten by a monster just because your mum happened to give you a red shirt to wear that day .

I would also like to amend what I said previously as I've been thinking about the whole discussion for a while now. There are examples where I can, indeed, enjoy a show or a movie even though I find the story less than engaging. And that's when it manages to get the atmosphere right. I guess that's similar.


Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
BSG is my favorite show, probably of all time, so I figure that gives me license to say pretty much whatever I want, and not be labelled a 'hater.'
Quite likely, yes.


Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
Our expectations are so high because BSG has raised the bar on our expectations so much. That's a good thing.
I agree.


Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
I'll wait til the whole show is over and think about it for a while before I make my final decision.
It's the same for me, really. The story has to reach its conclusion before a final judgement can be passed. Among other things, I think a lot of is in the details of what Sam was talking about. He only gave us a relatively rough sketch of what happened (plus he wasn't really in great shape at the time ).

As I said further up, they can still screw up things bad time. But my feeling is they won't.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
Still the best show on television. But that doesn't make every single decision they make perfect by default.
I agree. I just happen to like this one a lot myself since it's nothing like what I might have expected but really cool in my eyes on so many different levels.


Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Justtoyourleft wrote: View Post
As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of beauty.
As far as the explanation we got, personally, I think it was a thing of adequacy.
Fair enough.

What gets me about it is the way it reaches back through the entire story and lets so many things appear in a different light in a very cool way, I think. I'm still thinking about all the implications with regards to Cylon society and how some of it corresponds to our own world or societies.
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Old February 16 2009, 06:39 PM   #281
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Could Baltar be Daniel????


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Old February 16 2009, 06:55 PM   #282
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
He's essentially a Marvel Comics villain of the Doctor Doom variety, minus the kitschy armor and cape.
I actually like this in its simplicity. The Bible is full of such archtypes. Ellen is Eve, Cavil is her son Cain who rebelled against his family and killed the favored brother. The metaphor (and more to the point, the motivation) is easily grasped and understood.
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Old February 16 2009, 07:06 PM   #283
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

cbspock wrote: View Post
Could Baltar be Daniel????


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Don't you think Anders would have mentioned that when he was telling about Daniel...since he now remembers who he was? "Oh yeah...that Baltar guy looks just like him!"

Given Cavil's hatred of Daniel I also think that if Baltar was Daniel then Cavil would have already found a way to kill him before now. Cavil and the other cylons knew Baltar from day one.
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Old February 16 2009, 07:06 PM   #284
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Dark Gilligan said:
I actually like this in it's simplicity. The Bible is full of such archtypes. Ellen is Eve, Cavil is her son Cain who rebelled against his family and killed the favored brother. The metaphor (and more to the point, the motivation) is easily grasped and understood.
^Hmmm, I never thought about it like that.
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Old February 16 2009, 08:08 PM   #285
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Woah, this thread is huge. I gave it an Excellent.

The episode wasn't bad either.

I don't think this hit the emotional range that we'd had in the past couple of weeks, but whenever the show delves into its mythology I usually lap it up. And hell they brought it this week; I wasn't disappointed.

The opening segment detailing Cylon history was pretty nifty, espeically cutting to Ellen resurrecting. Why was she crying, I pondered. Then as all the juicy Cylon past was slowly revealed I became more and more enthralled. And a bit icked out at the whole Oedopal slant that John (ha!) had incurred by messing around with his creator during 'Occupation.' Kate Vernon and Dean Stockwell were most excellent.

Seeing Boomer's attitude being explained a little was what I've been waiting for since she tried to kill Hera back in season 3. And then to see her grow a little of her soul back and help Ellen escape made me squee - I miss Boomer! I forsee some sort of redemption ending in probable death, but hey.

Anders is acting all spooky - he remembers everything that had happened on Earth, and asked for Starbuck to gather Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Ellen- "Ellen is dead." "Yes of course." *strange smile on face* I totally thought this was Sam's version of 'Rapture' before he started spouting off.

Tyrol is Chief again! That was nearly worth the admission alone!

Tyrol and Tory being a couple in the past seems very odd, but made me wonder if some sort of latent memory is what contributed to Tory wanting to kill Cally? Just something that clicked with me.

Really, really good episode. I've watched it twice now and think there's probably stuff I'm still missing. What's Ellen going to say when she finds out Saul has knocked up Caprica?
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