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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
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Average 13 5.08%
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Old February 14 2009, 06:37 PM   #166
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Gregsmack wrote: View Post
Evidence? The model was allegedly artistic. Kara's father has been mentioned as a pianist or composer.

More stretching evidence? Does anyone remember the piano sonata that used to play during base ship scenes in season 3? A musical hint or an elegy of sorts?
I think music is definitely going to become an interesting piece in the larger canvas. So I can certainly imagine Kara' father figuring into it somehow.

I also had to think back to Gaeta and this song he would sing when his leg hurt. I wonder if there is some more meaning to that.

I also still wonder about his final discussion with Baltar where he says he wants people to know who he was, and Baltar says he knew who Felix was. It might just be related to him wanting people to know what his motives where, who he was as a human being. Still, I did wonder if there was something more.

And then, of course, there's also Bob Dylan's song to think about...
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Old February 14 2009, 06:50 PM   #167
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Subjective wrote: View Post
Fantastic episode! The whole Daniel thing has me thinking too... doesn't it translate to "God the Judge"? That could be a clue.
According to Wikipedia:
"The name "Daniel" means "Judged by El (god)". "Dan" = judge and "i" = a suffix conjugating the verb such that its action applies to the speaker."

El was one of the many names of the monotheistic God in the Semitic speaking areas during Biblical and Post-Biblical times.
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Old February 14 2009, 06:51 PM   #168
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

My take on Gaeta's conversation with Baltar is that he just wants people to remember him for the man he was, or the man he tried to be, rather than the mutineer he became. My take on his singing was that it was just a distraction from the pain.

But I really am curious about the Dylan song. Tory was itching to ask Anders about it before his brain died. Interesting.

Also, did anyone catch Ishay in this episode? She was particularly blunt with Kara at the end telling her how Anders isn't actually "in there." Considering her expression when she realized the implications of Cap-Six's baby and her outburst over telling Tyrol about Nicky and we may have a serious problem in the Galactica infirmary. I'm actually quite afraid for the wellbeing of everyone's favourite pregnant supermodel babykiller.
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Old February 14 2009, 07:07 PM   #169
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

^
It's very possible that the things about Gaeta were indeed pretty down-to-earth , I agree.
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Old February 14 2009, 07:24 PM   #170
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Gregsmack wrote: View Post

Also, did anyone catch Ishay in this episode? She was particularly blunt with Kara at the end telling her how Anders isn't actually "in there." Considering her expression when she realized the implications of Cap-Six's baby and her outburst over telling Tyrol about Nicky and we may have a serious problem in the Galactica infirmary. I'm actually quite afraid for the wellbeing of everyone's favourite pregnant supermodel babykiller.
I was worried about that nurse the other week i just hope she keeps her hands off the baby.
That nurse is going to be trouble.
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Old February 14 2009, 07:26 PM   #171
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
I think the weakest link in the chain is if you look at the story from the perspective of the Final Five.

Try to imagine this story as a t.v. show in your mind.

Five people on Earth decide to get together in a research facility and re-invent (forgotten?) resurrection technology all on their own. They get word (from whom?) that the end of the world is coming, so they conveniently (how?) build a space ship (complete with resurrection technology, space travel capability, and extra copies of their bodies) and somehow stash it in Earth orbit. Just how are these 'ordinary' skinjobs capable of all of this? Moses, much?

So then Earth goes boom and the Five wake up in their new ship. This much I can almost accept. Traditional 'human' motivations get us this far. But now, these Five decide, out of the goodness of their hearts (and despite the virtually unlimited options afforded to a group of suddenly immortal individuals), to embark on a ridiculous two-thousand year journey to snail through the galaxy looking for the (whereabouts-unknown) 12 colonies to warn them JUST IN CASE those people JUST HAPPEN TO INVENT a race of robots JUST LIKE EARTH DID and those robots JUST HAPPEN TO REBEL in the same way that they did on Earth.

So, the Final Five were a bunch of Space Hippies, driving aimlessly through the galaxy in a van, preaching peace and love to a bunch of squares who just never got the message.

And then, when they finally reach the 12 colonies, they distract the Centurions from their destruction, but they never bother to deliver their crucial message of peace and love to the humans?

I'm still wrapping my brain around this. I get the chain of events. I'm just having a hard time plugging in believable character motivations along the way.
Totally agree. One thing that really makes it stick out is it seems like a very direct admission that the writers needed to get a group of characters from Point A to Point B, so they just wrote a scene where they all say "Hey, we need to get from Point A to Point B for this plot to work. Let's go!"

It could have made more sense if the Five had gone to the colonies because they had nowhere else to go. They have scripture, right? So what if their journey to the colonies had been a mirror of the RTF's journey to Earth? Nobody quite remembers where the colonies are, but there are legends. Then the episode could have dispensed with the "no FTL" thing and set it so they spent 2000 years wandering in their resurrection ship, searching for their lost brothers. Then, when they do arrive, instead of being grreted with open arms, they find that the colonies have gone and built robotic slaves as well. Oops.

About the only thing in the episode that held together 100% was the idea that cavil would want to wipe the Five's memories and stick them amongst humanity so they would suffer, rather than outright killing them. That seemed totally in character and is actually a pretty cool idea. Everything else suffers from varying degrees of Plot Rot. I guess I'm just disappointed in some of what we've heard so far since I think there have been fan ideas and theories that hold up better than what we just got.
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Old February 14 2009, 08:07 PM   #172
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Isn't it interesting how Galactica, a ship that symbolizes humanity's struggle against the cylons, has to itself become part Cylon in order to survive? It is a great metaphor for how humans and Cylons have to accept each other and perhaps even become part of each other (hybrids) if they are to trully live in peace.
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Old February 14 2009, 08:12 PM   #173
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Excellent.

Being the most important mythology episode yet for the series makes it for me the best episode all season. Nearly every outstanding unanswered question is finally answered and in ways no one had imagined. It carefully pulled everything together various pieces from the series in intriguing unexpected ways to assemble, in an LOST-level of competence, detail and creativity, a mostly coherent and very satisfying mythology, for me at least.

Who created the skinjobs? Whose idea was to break the Armistice? Where is the Cylon homeworld? Who is the Cylon God? Why were the 7 not permitted to speak of the Five yet are aware they exist? Why not erase all memory of them to prevent curiosity as was the case with D'Anna?

First off, I liked the neat introduction where they pulled together the various relevant clips of the Cylon mythology from the course of the series and assembled it with the narrative scrolling in between.

Liked how the head wound Anders suffered last week facilitated getting the suppressed memories triggered.

I love this little mythology they created. Lots of interesting revelations that I didn't see coming that filled in a lot of gaps that I couldn't quite figure out. It showed a fair bit of thinking on the writers part that it wasn't just slapped together. I'm even more impressed given that it was stitched together in hindsight.

All Five knew each other. All Five worked in the same research facility. Their moniker of Final Five seems to refer to the fact only Five from 13th colony to survive. Anders tells Tighe that he was married to Ellen back then. Tory and Tyrol lived together and were going to get married. That put an interesting irony to the fact that Cally was suspicious of the two of having an affair and Tory spacing Tyrol's wife. When the holocaust came they downloaded into new bodies 2000 years ago onboard a ship they placed in orbit of the planet. It reminded me of Jor'El having an escape plan when Krypton was destroyed.

In a surprise, Anders also revealed that 2000 years ago that the supernatural entities that have appeared to Baltar and Six appeared to them almost like the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse warning them of the imminent disaster and this was what set them to start making preparations for their escape. This surprised me and definitely piqued my curiosity. Why did they appear to just these Five? It also seemed that these entities also directed The Five to find the 12 colonies. Did they want them to create skinjobs that would lead to the holocaust? They didn't invent but re-invented resurrection technology--neat tidbit. Even then Tyrol was a good engineer--like that touch. Ellen made the leap to get it on line. This particular nugget in Ander's series of revelations was put to interesting use later as it tied back to the destruction of the resurrection hub.

Like that BSG's age is starting to show. Nice idea too bad I never really connected with it the way I did the Enterprise or the Defiant even. It was just a ship to me but I can how others might have felt differently.

Neat idea they had been traveling for 2000 years because the ship they had was not equipped with FTL drives so they took that long to traverse that great distance arriving at the time of the First Cylon War. I wondered back in 4.11 what they were up to for the last 2000 years.

I thought it was a shocking revelation and an interesting bit of context added to the story and history that it was the Five who brought about the Armistice 40 years earlier and caused the Cylons to retreat. The Colonials always wondered why they just out of nowhere abruptly left. Neat. Although it does create a inconsistency I think since I thought Tighe was a young man who Adama knew during the first war but the episode suggests he helped create the skinjobs after the war was halted. Plus if they age naturally we saw Tighe was an older man not a young man even back then.

And did the forces that guided them do this knowing they'd create the skinjobs who would go onto nearly annihilate the 12 colonies.

I'm intrigued by the colony Cavil spoke of. Ellen apparently did not activate the Four. So who did? the supernatural forces?

I also thought it was fairly clever the way they brought Cavil back into the story in such a pivotal way. He turned on his creators. It had always been known he was a sadist and so having him turn on his creators, downloading them with no memories of who they were and then inserting them into the fleet as a lesson makes so much sense and sheds light on quite a few things. It was also interesting that he started the war and broke the armistice with the Five out of the way. And to further highlight the depths of his cruelty he turned Ellen and Tighe who had been a loving couple into a dysfunctional one that engaged in a destructive love/hate relationship. To further the twistednesshe essentially had sex with his mother Ellen who created him who was also in a way his daughter since she based him on her father which covers pretty much every bit of twistedness with the incest angles while blinding his father Tighe. Sort of a Cylon Oedipus complex.

And while Cavil might claim he was doing all of this because of what happened to the centurions it is a bit disingenuous given how he had inhibitors placed them and opposed Natalie's plan to restore their free will. No, this was all about *his* identity issues and self-loathing and jealousy. The scene towards the end between Ellen and Cavil reminded me of Lore/Soong.

Last edited by startrekwatcher; February 14 2009 at 08:38 PM.
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Old February 14 2009, 08:49 PM   #174
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

A question:

Where did Ellen's body come from? Where was she exactly when she resurrected? Does Cavil have copies of the Final Five stored away somewhere that we don't know about?

Also, this makes me want to rewatch a bunch of stuff. Think about Cavil's history on the show. He was the one who told Tyrol, "I don't remember seeing you at the Cylon parties," AND he was on Caprica when Starbuck rescued Sam.
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Old February 14 2009, 08:57 PM   #175
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Just watched it.
Ok, can I suggest we need a new scoring system here with these episodes? After "excellent" we need "extremely excellent"!!!

I was gonna make a thread actually about the missing Cylon intro for the past few episodes, but when I saw the new one for this ep I came close to cuming in my pants

Brilliant performance from Kate Vernon as Ellen, notably in the first scene of her terror at waking up in the resurrection bath


btw, did anyone else think No.7/Daniel could be Baltar?
I just thought because of the "happened before, happen again" thing. The scene of Tigh & Ellen together in the rubble about to be nuked is very similar to the moment of Six & Baltar at his house about to be nuked in the miniseries.
We've never *really* understood how Baltar survived that...
Just a thought


CommanderTrip wrote: View Post
Ethros wrote: View Post
Maybe it will be like DS9: Rapture, with Anders on the cusp of knowing everything, but his condition is worsening, and Starbuck has to choose between saving his life or this knowledge possibly killing him, and orders Doc Cottle to operate.
Anders wakes up distressed he nearly had it, but now its all gone.

I think I'd go mental if that happened though
oh.... my gods.

I think I'd rather watch Tyrol run laps around this ship again if thats the case.
Hey Anders revealed a lot beforehand, but I wasn't far off!
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Old February 14 2009, 08:58 PM   #176
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Excellent. Again.

The BSG writers have pulled off the retcon of all retcons, explaining the origin of the skinjobs, the Five, the Armistice, the Holocaust, and just about everything else. No teases this time--just the facts. For an episode that was almost all exposition, it went by quickly and I found it very riveting. I'd always been a little frustrated with the general shallowness of BSG's mythology, and finally we got some serious depth. Cavil always seemed like the leader holding all the secrets--and now we know why. So many things from the past now make sense in context.

The explanations we got, both from Ellen and Anders, hold together pretty well, even if they aren't perfect. Their motivation for warning the 12 Colonies is probably a little more complicated than was plainly stated, but really, where else could they have gone? They knew Earth was about to be nuked, so they took steps to save themselves. After that, it didn't matter where they went, as long as they had a destination. I'm not so sure they were really intent on warning the Colonies--but once they arrived and realized the Cylons were bent on wiping out humanity, they knew resurrection was their bargaining chip to end the war. It explains why it ended so suddenly. I suspect the Guardian faction didn't want to go along with the skinjob thing, and it's possible their Hybrid knew too much--it's interesting that he was so lucid and clear in his speech, while the other Hybrids all speak in riddles and metaphors, assuming what they say has any meaning at all. Cavil, again, probably spread the rumor that the Hybrids' speech was meaningless, because the Hybrids seem to know about the Five, too. What if they were lobotomized like the Raiders?

I think we now know who the villain of the entire series is: John. Man, orchestrating the murder of 30 billion people just to prove a point to your creators. That's pretty twisted.

Although I, too, saw shades of Agent Smith in John's little "this body sucks" speech, I think Stockwell's version is better. I'm glad they got someone with his chops to play this role. He was so underplayed in most of his prior appearances, but he's gradually lost control and come unglued. It's fascinating to watch.

At some point, the Five will have to answer for what they've done, though. They had the right intentions, misguided as they were. And like all parents, they just couldn't bring themselves to believe their children would be capable of such heinous acts--and humanity paid the price for their blindness. I can see Adama, Roslin, etc. accepting the Cylons they've come to know and trust as Cylons. But could they ever forgive them for creating the skinjobs that later came back to slaughter them all?
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Old February 14 2009, 09:01 PM   #177
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
A question:

Where did Ellen's body come from? Where was she exactly when she resurrected? Does Cavil have copies of the Final Five stored away somewhere that we don't know about?
Since Cavil arranged the Holocaust specifically to teach his creators a lesson, I assume he kept spare bodies for each of the Five locked away, where only he knew about them, and would be alerted immediately if any of them were resurrected. It seems like only he and Boomer knew about Ellen for quite some time--at least that explains why Boomer didn't side with the rest of her model during Nathalie's rebellion! She knew the truth and knew what the Five were.
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Old February 14 2009, 09:52 PM   #178
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

An excellent episode! It was like a firehose was turned on as the info was poured from the screen. A lot of plot holes were filled and nicely done I think. My only question is, I can see John (Cavills) hand when it came to the final five except where Tori is concerned. He never really had any envolvement with her that I know of.
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Old February 14 2009, 10:00 PM   #179
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Lee mentioning that the fleet representatives should represent their ships and the lives they live instead of their former homeworlds reminds me of what Zarek said in Colonial Day. About how humanity had to adapt to a new way of living. Looks like Zarek was right about a few things.
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Old February 14 2009, 10:01 PM   #180
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x15: "No Exit"

Just seen bits of it again and I just caught the part where Anders mentions the head people as they appeared to the 5 before the destruction of Earth. So the only real questions that need to be answered now is who was Daniel, probably Starbucks dad and who are these head people who seem to be manipulating events.
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