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Old February 14 2009, 05:52 PM   #91
joyofvgr
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
And by the way, if we're going to take what was shown on the screen as canon, which I certainly do, apparently Janeway and Chakotay agreed with me. They didn't act on their feelings, or if they did, we didn't find out about it. So I've got at least a couple of heavy-hitters on my side.
Well, I think the writers on the show were on your side as was Kate Mulgrew.
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Old February 14 2009, 05:54 PM   #92
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

I feel all validated now...
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Old February 14 2009, 05:55 PM   #93
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Nobody said we all agree with either the writers or KM.
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Old February 14 2009, 05:57 PM   #94
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

es! wrote: View Post
joyofvgr wrote: View Post
I can't believe I am once again defending C/7. This time in a J/C thread of all places (*kicks self*)

Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero. I think once she found out that she once had romantic feelings for someone and remembered what that felt like she was anxious to explore them again. That being said, I always saw C/7 as a temporary fling and assumed Seven would be the one to move on.
*nods*

Chak is way too polite for break ups
Not even that as much as I think he would have been happy with Seven. She seemed to care about him and attended to his needs. He seemed delighted by her picnic for example. However, she was young and I think once back on Earth many new possibilities would have opened up for her. In Course Oblivion, the other Seven stated that Monogomy was illogical. I think the real Seven would have thought the same way back on Earth and rightly so. At least until she found someone who was truly her equal. Let's face it, Chakotay is handsome and nice, but really not for Seven.

Janeway on the other hand has lived life. She's been around and had two significant others. She would be in more of a position to know what she wants. I think once she was with Chakotay he would make her very happy and attend to her needs. He seemed to be that type and would be good for her. His quiet strength balanced her quite well.
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Old February 14 2009, 05:57 PM   #95
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

^^ In this thread - I mean, I knew when I started that I'd be in quite the minority - I'll take my validations where I can get 'em.
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Old February 14 2009, 05:59 PM   #96
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
I feel all validated now...
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Old February 14 2009, 06:03 PM   #97
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

joyofvgr wrote: View Post
I can't believe I am once again defending C/7. This time in a J/C thread of all places (*kicks self*)

Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero. I think once she found out that she once had romantic feelings for someone and remembered what that felt like she was anxious to explore them again. That being said, I always saw C/7 as a temporary fling and assumed Seven would be the one to move on.

Well, that's the thing. I never really warmed up to this Seven/Axum thing, as I did not warm up to Seven/Doctor either. I just have hard time imaging Seven in love. I just cannot see it. And even though there are wonderfully written C/7 fanfic, for instance, (teya coming to my mind first, since she is a rare of her kind), I still cannot see it and therefore the credibility of the story suffers for me.
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Old February 14 2009, 06:05 PM   #98
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
^^ In this thread - I mean, I knew when I started that I'd be in quite the minority - I'll take my validations where I can get 'em.
*huggles* since you dont have a hug smiley here.

As someone said earlier, we might not agree, but it's through disagreements that we grow and sometimes see things in a different light.
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Old February 14 2009, 10:02 PM   #99
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

I've made my way though most of the other Voyager threads so I thought I'd give this one a look. Now please don't stone me (and am I the only other guy in here other than, well, Guy?) but I have to chime in:

I don't think J/C was a good idea.

I also don't think C/7 was an idea at all, as much as filler inspired by 'Human Error' and expanded in 'Endgame' to fill a plot point.

I think the idea of building up tension between J/C and using it as a way of saying 'look, these people are on the other side of the galaxy under unique circumstances, and see how it's started to break them?' is a good idea, but if it becomes a full-blown relationship while they're onboard the ship, it negates that tension and is just a plain bad idea on the part of the characters.

Even though 'Lessons' showed that Starfleet is okay with this kind of thing (clearly leaving it up to the Captain's discretion - if he/she can command a starship, surely he/she can realize when it's a bad idea to have a relationship?) and here, on a ship with a crew of 150, where you might have to see these people for the next eighty years, no matter how much they were tempted, it would be a bad idea for the skipper to have an affair with her XO, or any of her crew. As the single decision-maker, it puts her in a very awkward situation should she have to chose between the person and the ship, particularly when that person is the XO and likely to be sent into dangerous situations in the Captain's stead.

Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.

Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.
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Old February 14 2009, 10:55 PM   #100
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Praetor wrote: View Post
Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.
I've already said I prefer post-Endgame J/C, for numerous reasons. However, I'm not sure why showing a long-term, loving relationship would be detrimental to KJs character where several less meaningful liasions didn't necessarily hurt Jimmy. Or is there something more to that?

I see issues of perceived favouritism and objectivity as more potentially problematic. She was engaged, twice if Mosaic counts, so we are supposed to see her as someone who has some investment in commitment and personal relationships. I like the J/C tension, and would have liked to see more. I would hope that a double standard was *not* the reason there wasn't more.
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Last edited by leola; February 14 2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Old February 15 2009, 12:04 AM   #101
joyofvgr
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

leola wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.
I've already said I prefer post-Endgame J/C, for numerous reasons. However, I'm not sure why showing a long-term, loving relationship would be detrimental to KJs character where several less meaningful liasions didn't necessarily hurt Jimmy. Or is there something more to that?

I see issues of perceived favouritism and objectivity as more potentially problematic. She was engaged, twice if Mosaic counts, so we are supposed to see her as someone who has some investment in commitment and personal relationships. I like the J/C tension, and would have liked to see more. I would hope that a double standard was *not* the reason there wasn't more.
Well I think it's interesting that they gave Janeway this gorgeous xo, who was really a former Maquis Captain who agreed to the position. Not truly a subordinate as designated by Starfleet, but at first the enemy if you will. Then gave these characters sexual tension and finally hid behind protocol. Fine. So maybe not on the ship. But not at all? Not even when they got home? Interesting.

What if the roles were reversed and Chakotay was Captain and he captured Janeway, who was gorgeous and came on to him? I wonder how that would have played out. Would the male viewing audience see it as realistic that she would be appointed his OX and nothing at all happen for seven years?
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Old February 15 2009, 12:47 AM   #102
ria 75
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Hi guys. I once was a Me/Cer, is that all right too?
And, sure, much more of a J/Cer than a C/7er.
Tachyon wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra.
*sighs*

That would have been so effing great.
Agreed. It would have been quite an excitement.
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Old February 15 2009, 12:58 AM   #103
Jeri
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

joyofvgr wrote: View Post
Anyway, I thought Seven's romantic side was set up in Unimatrix Zero...
I'm with you. Seven and Axum were hot; I loved it.
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Old February 15 2009, 01:33 AM   #104
leola
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

I thought 7/Axum were a good couple. Despite 7s reservations, they seemed to have chemistry, which I did not ever see with C/7. I always wonder why the writers chose to have Seven's holo-Chak chopping carrots (which he hates cooked, according to Kellin) and preparing meat (which he doesn't eat). I hope they wanted us to catch those, and see it as part of the bigger "This is SO wrong" picture...
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Old February 15 2009, 01:44 AM   #105
JustKate
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Praetor wrote: View Post
I've made my way though most of the other Voyager threads so I thought I'd give this one a look. Now please don't stone me (and am I the only other guy in here other than, well, Guy?) but I have to chime in:

I don't think J/C was a good idea.

I also don't think C/7 was an idea at all, as much as filler inspired by 'Human Error' and expanded in 'Endgame' to fill a plot point.

I think the idea of building up tension between J/C and using it as a way of saying 'look, these people are on the other side of the galaxy under unique circumstances, and see how it's started to break them?' is a good idea, but if it becomes a full-blown relationship while they're onboard the ship, it negates that tension and is just a plain bad idea on the part of the characters.

Even though 'Lessons' showed that Starfleet is okay with this kind of thing (clearly leaving it up to the Captain's discretion - if he/she can command a starship, surely he/she can realize when it's a bad idea to have a relationship?) and here, on a ship with a crew of 150, where you might have to see these people for the next eighty years, no matter how much they were tempted, it would be a bad idea for the skipper to have an affair with her XO, or any of her crew. As the single decision-maker, it puts her in a very awkward situation should she have to chose between the person and the ship, particularly when that person is the XO and likely to be sent into dangerous situations in the Captain's stead.

Also, am I the only one who feels that having the Captain lust after her XO might have in particular in some ways undermined the cajones of our first female Captain? Now, I love Kathy, and I'm not saying they make her a woman in appearance only, or undermine her womanhood in any way, but out of respect for the character, I think it would have been a bad idea on the writers' part to actually have her have an intership relationship, with anyone, and in particular Chakotay.

Now what happens after they get home and they're no longer on the same ship or in the same direct chain of command? Admiral's discretion.
I agree, oh, at least 327 percent. I particularly like the point you made, Praetor, that not having a romantic relationship helps emphasize the dilemma faced by the entire crew (if I am paraphrasing you correctly here). J and C had the same dilemma that everyone who considers an affair with a coworker has, but to the nth degree. If it works out, there will be complications -- lots of them. If it doesn't work out, well...how horrible would that be?

I mean....aaaaaaauuuuuuugh! There's an old saying: "Don't sh1t where you eat." I'd say that's even more true if there's only one place to eat, because all the others are thousands of light years away.

They had to stay just friends, with, sure, an element of something more, until they got back to the dear old Alpha Quadrant. At least I think so. So I am extremely glad they did, at least as far as the canon is concerned.

And then, yeah -- admiral's discretion!

Last edited by JustKate; February 15 2009 at 02:54 AM.
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