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Old February 17 2009, 04:13 PM   #181
Gorf
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

teya wrote: View Post
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C.
I haven't seen any do that to you in here so I assume that this is something from your past that you speak off - please don't blame us for that. We accept that you dislike J/C, you're certainly entitled to that and we've had zero Seven bashing so...

Anyway J/7 for me is a mother/daughter or perhaps mentor/student relationship. I see no romantic relationship being possible there, but then that's me and I see J/C so...I might not be objective.
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Old February 17 2009, 04:37 PM   #182
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Gorf wrote: View Post
What I don't quite understand here is the strict comparison you make with today. Live was very different on earth 400 years ago and I'm sure it will be again in another 400 years.

I just don't think we can make such strict comparisons with the US military of today. Besides there are other countries with other military structures and strategies.

On top of that I don't think it's quite fair to make the demands you do of people stranded 70 years from home. To me that's a completely different situation than being deployed to Iraq or some other war zone.

If Janeway had any choice, I'm sure she'd agree with you, but since her choices are limited, I'm not so sure she always would. Usually the circumstances make the situation and the circumstances here are completely different than today's US military.

She might be a captain and it might be a Starfleet ship, but I think their extremely unusual situation calls for extremely unusual solutions at times.

But I still like ya!
I realize the differences between the modern military and Starfleet, but...it's the closest parallel we've got, right at the moment. While there are limits, of course, and I hope I am not making the comparison too "strict," I am convinced it's a more valid comparison than, say, CEO of a corporation. CEOs don't generally have to worry about their facility being subject to attack, for example.

But I do think that people are people now, people were people 400 years ago, and people will still be people 400 years from now. I hope we grow and become better people...but we will still be easily recognizable as the fallible species that we are now.

So I think 400 years from now, there will still be things that a starship captain or first officer or second officer just ought not do, not because the actions are bad but because those actions are simply not compatible with being captain, first officer or second officer.

Let me address the "70 years from home" issue, if you don't mind. I don't think we've talked much about this. I can see two big problems with sentiments (I don't think anybody's said this exactly, but I think my paraphrase is fair) such as, "How can you expect J and C to be alone for 70 years?"

I've addressed one aspect of that before, and that is that a lot of people go through life without a partner and still lead good and satisfying lives. But beyond that...

Does the crew of Voyager, does the captain of Voyager, really expect to be isolated in the DQ for 70 years? I don't think so. They talk about the possibility, of course, but it seems to me that for most of the voyage, they are trying to cut that time, they expect to get back much sooner than that - and in fact, no matter what timeline you favor, they do get back much sooner than that.

If you're sentenced to prison for 70 years with no possibility of parole, you can reasonably expect to be there in prison for 70 years. But if you're an energetic and optimistic person who has had great success in using technology to solve problems, and you have at your command a powerful starship...do you really think Kathryn Janeway was convinced she'd be plodding hopelessly through the DQ for 70 years? I don't. While she no doubt had to consider the possibility, and while she no doubt had her moments when getting home seemed like a remote possibility, I doubt very much that she dwelled on it, and I doubt very very very much that her attitude was, "OK. This is it. Voyager is my home for pretty much the rest of my life. Whatever I'm going to make of my life, I've got to do it here. (So if I want romance, my only choices are the people here on this ship, and gee, Chakotay's really handsome...) No point in even considering what will happen after we get home. "

No. Her attitude was always "I'm going to get you home, and I'm going to do it just as fast as I can, and I'm going to use any reasonable means to do so." That was her attitude starting right from the end of "Caretaker."

So what I'm saying is, she didn't have to look ahead to 70 years of loneliness, if that's what command seemed to her, and I don't think she did. She just had to look ahead to getting home, and there's no way that the indominable Kathryn Janeway expected it to be a hopeless 70-year slog.

And I still like you, too.

Last edited by JustKate; February 17 2009 at 04:49 PM.
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Old February 17 2009, 05:39 PM   #183
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Ok, I'm over that issue. What's next ladies?
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Old February 17 2009, 05:43 PM   #184
Tachyon
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Next, aye? Hmm... let's think...
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Old February 17 2009, 06:33 PM   #185
Tachyon
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Opinions on "Places of Exhile" by C.L. Bennett? Did you like how J/C was written in it? Have you not read it? Wanna spoilers? Etc...?
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Old February 17 2009, 07:08 PM   #186
es!
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

I haven't read it and I'd love to see spoilers, please
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Old February 17 2009, 07:20 PM   #187
teya
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Gorf wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C.
I haven't seen any do that to you in here so I assume that this is something from your past that you speak off - please don't blame us for that. We accept that you dislike J/C, you're certainly entitled to that and we've had zero Seven bashing so...
That's why the laughing face. Really, you can only laugh when someone tries to judge you based on a 'ship. And that happens to 'shippers of every stripe.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:31 PM   #188
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
And good for J and C (that is, going back to things as they were), I say!
I realize that I didn't make my point clear in my original post about Resolutions/Coda, so let me explain further: I understand that they had to return to business as usual. I think the one exception Janeway might have made was after Coda. But then there was nothing more. The next thing we see is Janeway with Michael Sullivan, then Chakotay with Seven. Even after Chakotay realizes that they might return to Earth he makes plans to stay withing transporter range of Seven. At that point I personally felt like I was punched in the gut.

So what did happen to J/C? I assume that they did sleep together on New Earth and then again on that sailboat after Coda. There were certainly moments where it seemed as if the tension was still there and there was still an interest, yet nothing was every really resolved one way or another. That's my point and why I was so frustrated. I agree that a shipboard romance is not the best idea under the circumstances. I can honestly see both sides of this issue. But I didn't like how it was handled overall, especially in Endgame.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:34 PM   #189
joyofvgr
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

teya wrote: View Post
Gorf wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C.
I haven't seen any do that to you in here so I assume that this is something from your past that you speak off - please don't blame us for that. We accept that you dislike J/C, you're certainly entitled to that and we've had zero Seven bashing so...
That's why the laughing face. Really, you can only laugh when someone tries to judge you based on a 'ship. And that happens to 'shippers of every stripe.
Then why do you judge all of us based on our ship of J/C? You've admitted to have very bad experiences with some J/Cers in the past. Why do you assume we are all like that?
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Old February 17 2009, 07:36 PM   #190
teya
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

joyofvgr wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Gorf wrote: View Post

I haven't seen any do that to you in here so I assume that this is something from your past that you speak off - please don't blame us for that. We accept that you dislike J/C, you're certainly entitled to that and we've had zero Seven bashing so...
That's why the laughing face. Really, you can only laugh when someone tries to judge you based on a 'ship. And that happens to 'shippers of every stripe.
Then why do you judge all of us based on our ship of J/C? You've admitted to have very bad experiences with some J/Cers in the past. Why do you assume we are all like that?
Am I accusing you of anything? No.

Carry on.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:42 PM   #191
Gates
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

*waves hi to all the other J/Cers*
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Old February 17 2009, 07:44 PM   #192
joyofvgr
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

teya wrote: View Post

Am I accusing you of anything? No.

Carry on.
Me personally? no. But you do get your back up when you think J/Cers are up to something, then point to how horribly they've treated you. Many times you catch me by surprise and completely off guard, because I'm not aware of your history. And again, everytime your name has come up, I hear nothing but compliments, especially with respect to your writing. This is why I'm baffled. You've also made an appearance in this thread and imo, everyone has been very cordial, as well they should be. So I don't get it.
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Old February 17 2009, 07:55 PM   #193
teya
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

joyofvgr wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Am I accusing you of anything? No.

Carry on.
Me personally? no. But you do get your back up when you think J/Cers are up to something, then point to how horribly they've treated you. Many times you catch me by surprise and completely off guard, because I'm not aware of your history. And again, everytime your name has come up, I hear nothing but compliments, especially with respect to your writing. This is why I'm baffled. You've also made an appearance in this thread and imo, everyone has been very cordial, as well they should be. So I don't get it.
This is called talking about the poster, not the post.

I have already said, "carry on." This means "drop it."

I'm out of this thread. If you would like to continue making me a topic of discussion, go right ahead. I won't be back to see what you're saying.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:03 PM   #194
joyofvgr
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Actually, it's called talking to the poster, not about the poster. I am talking directly to you, as in replying to your post.
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Old February 17 2009, 08:07 PM   #195
teya
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

joyofvgr wrote: View Post
Actually, it's called talking to the poster, not about the poster. I am talking directly to you, as in replying to your post.
Are we talking about J/C? No.
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