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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old February 16 2009, 09:28 PM   #151
Guy Gardener
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

I can seen Janeway disposing of maternity leave if both father and mother of dozens of babies simultaneously expect to ignore their dutites for months or possibly years on end.

ENH. Emergency Nanny Hologram.
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Old February 16 2009, 10:04 PM   #152
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

leola wrote: View Post
...so the comparisons aren't invalid; maybe incomplete?

It's unsanitary to put words in other people's mouths, but are you saying that extra responsibility is the reason a ship's captain shouldn't be involved with a subordinate or have a family? I'm not totally convinced I wanted Janeway to have a family within the context of their seven-year voyage, but I'm also not convinced of that particular reasoning. If captains are held to a higher standard, why would that also not apply to serving with their loved one/family? In theory, they are merely other members of the crew...
I didn’t bring it up to try to disperse the group hug or anything. I brought it up because: (1) While it has been mentioned, most notably by Praetor, nobody seems to have reacted to it, and I wanted to make sure it was noticed. (2) It's important, dang it. At least I think so. (3) Yes, I do think that it is yet another reason why a ship’s captain shouldn’t get involved with a subordinate – more on the family issue below. (4) And the other reason I brought it up is because it seemed to me that most of the people responding to the thread have little or no experience with the military – if they have, they haven’t mentioned it thus far. I don’t have much, but I really think that point of view adds something to the discussion, so I kind of elected myself spokeswoman. (I know Starfleet isn’t identical to the military – it’s part military, part diplomatic corps, and part science expedition – but I can’t think of a current closer parallel. At least it has a similar command structure, unlike a corporation.)

As for the issue of families, this is something I noticed even during TNG’s initial run, but it’s even more obvious now, and that is that although on some versions of Trek (notably TNG and DS9), there is theoretically no reason why a Starfleet officer shouldn’t have a family, the plain fact is that almost none of regulars do - and actually, we don't see many families on ship, period.

Why would this be? Is it because TPTB think there is or ought to be some generally accepted practice that high-ranking officers tend to devote themselves to career instead of family? Is it because TPTB honestly believe this is the most realistic scenario? Or is it simply because TPTB wanted to leave plenty of room for non-family-friendly plots (such as romances with passing aliens and such)? You got me. My guess would be the last one, but it is just a guess.

I would also have liked to have seen more family stuff on Voyager - just not involving Janeway, Chakotay or Tuvok. But...not too much, to be honest.

Praetor wrote:
While Worf's situation is probably worthy of its own thread, sending them on that kind of mission is exactly the thing that anyone involved with another officer could run into, Captain-trained or otherwise. Asking any Captain or officer to make that kind of sacrifice may be part of the job, but again, avoidable.
This would not be allowed in the current military, I am pretty sure. You don’t command your spouse in a dangerous mission (and in the case of Voyager, that’s exactly what their initial pursuit of the Maquis was – let alone being stranded in the DQ). I know that if both are in the military and have children, there is a rule that only one can be deployed in a war zone at any one time. I’m not sure what happens if they’re childless, though.

The reasons are, it's too distracting and stressful for both parties, and besides, nobody wants to create a bunch of orphans.

Last edited by JustKate; February 17 2009 at 12:56 AM.
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Old February 16 2009, 11:52 PM   #153
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
^ I believe his exact words, on several occasions, were "Oh, no! They aren't going to try that, are they? That would be so wrong!"

Leola, I had a reply to your post all written, and it was eaten. I'll try to get to it later today.
I must admit that was my original reaction when it appeared they were heading down that road. The idea obviously grew on me though.

I'm also amazed there are people who claim to have never seen it. If I wasn't looking for it and didn't like it when I first saw it then what the hell were they watching!?
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Old February 17 2009, 12:57 AM   #154
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

^ Oh, you're just an old softy, Kimc!

But I must agree that I can't understand why anybody can say they didn't see it. Either they didn't want to see it, or they need to work just a BIT on their social skills.
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Old February 17 2009, 01:27 AM   #155
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
^ Oh, you're just an old softy, Kimc!

But I must agree that I can't understand why anybody can say they didn't see it. Either they didn't want to see it, or they need to work just a BIT on their social skills.
I saw it early on. I didn't like it--just never liked those two together. I thought they brought out the worst in each other. But after YOH, really, it seemed to be cast aside.

Now, what that says about my maturity, social skills, ability to maintain an adult relationship, well, frankly, you're losing me there.
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Old February 17 2009, 01:33 AM   #156
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Teya - it was nothing to do with whether you like the J/C thing or dislike it. I was just making a little joke about those folks who claim to have watched Voyager and never noticed anything between J and C. It is their social skills I was making fun of, and it was really and truly just a little joke.

As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
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Old February 17 2009, 01:51 AM   #157
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

JustKate wrote: View Post
Teya - it was nothing to do with whether you like the J/C thing or dislike it. I was just making a little joke about those folks who claim to have watched Voyager and never noticed anything between J and C. It is their social skills I was making fun of, and it was really and truly just a little joke.

As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C. Kinda funny, really. At least my late SO thought so.

Frankly, though, J/C looked pretty one-sided to me. And since I could never figure out how a healthy human male was supposed to stay celibate for up to 75 years waiting for her, I counted it as dead post mid-season 4.

Now, I did see a lot of J/7 subtext post season 4, so whatever that says about me seeing that as opposed to J/C, who knows?
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Old February 17 2009, 03:20 AM   #158
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

:sticks head in: hi Tach and everyone i think y'all know why i'm here.
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Old February 17 2009, 04:01 AM   #159
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

teya wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
Teya - it was nothing to do with whether you like the J/C thing or dislike it. I was just making a little joke about those folks who claim to have watched Voyager and never noticed anything between J and C. It is their social skills I was making fun of, and it was really and truly just a little joke.

As you'll notice if you read some of the thread, I am not a fan of J/C either. Most definitely not. So if I had insulted the social skills of those who don't like the J/C romance, I would also have insulted my own social skills.
I've had my maturity and ability to handle a real adult relationship questioned because I never liked J/C. Kinda funny, really. At least my late SO thought so.

Frankly, though, J/C looked pretty one-sided to me. And since I could never figure out how a healthy human male was supposed to stay celibate for up to 75 years waiting for her, I counted it as dead post mid-season 4.

Now, I did see a lot of J/7 subtext post season 4, so whatever that says about me seeing that as opposed to J/C, who knows?
Eh, it just means you're a little twisted, but that's OK. IMO.

But anyway, I never liked J/C either - I've discussed why at some length on this thread, so I won't go into it yet again. (And the entire VOY group can be dimly heard in the distance cheering heartily.)

But I actually think that one's opinion on that has nothing to do with one's emotional maturity. But then again...I would, wouldn't I?
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Old February 17 2009, 04:47 AM   #160
Cheile
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

^ JustKate i read some of your whys and while they are interesting points, i have to disagree on the superior/subordinate dynamic not working. it worked quite well in DS9 with Odo and Kira.

and yes i'm aware that Kira was not the captain, BUT she was the highest-ranking Militia officer on board and therefore technically Odo's commanding officer. and they had a lot more conflict between them than just juggling a mixed crew (like the war run by Odo's own people).

just a thought you should consider.
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Old February 17 2009, 04:57 AM   #161
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Well, as you noted yourself, it's different. To me, it's a LOT different, but I realize that is subject to interpretation.

I suspect that another romantic has joined the discussion!
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Old February 17 2009, 05:06 AM   #162
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

^ yes i am LOL. the chemistry between them cannot be denied in my book.
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Old February 17 2009, 05:47 AM   #163
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Cheile wrote: View Post
:sticks head in: hi Tach and everyone i think y'all know why i'm here.
Hello dear!
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Old February 17 2009, 05:59 AM   #164
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

Cheile wrote: View Post
^ yes i am LOL. the chemistry between them cannot be denied in my book.
And writers should also pay some attention to the chemistry between the actors and not "forcing" some on screen relationships, if there is nothing there.
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Old February 17 2009, 06:57 AM   #165
Cheile
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Re: *~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

^ word to that! i have some friends in my PSP group that are casual watchers and when i brought up J/C, went "omg why didn't they hook up?! they had it bad!"

if the casual fan can see it....ummm IT'S THERE, you stupid idiot producers!
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