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Old February 25 2009, 07:12 PM   #61
number6
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
I'd hardly call 24 a sitcom.
C'mon now.
Yeah, but I meant to imply he SHOULD be writing sitcoms...
I know what you meant to imply. I was implying something as well.
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Old February 25 2009, 07:18 PM   #62
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Ok, well, he works on 24. Good. That and First Contact are now the two things he's done right. To make me a believer, he'll have to make up for all the Star Drek he wrote.

I sat through a lot of lame-ass Trek hoping beyond hope he'd at least hit a streak of good ones...

Never happened.
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Old February 25 2009, 07:26 PM   #63
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Ok, well, he works on 24. Good. That and First Contact are now the two things he's done right. To make me a believer, he'll have to make up for all the Star Drek he wrote.

I sat through a lot of lame-ass Trek hoping beyond hope he'd at least hit a streak of good ones...

Never happened.
That's your problem. That and you blame Braga for stuff he had nothing to do with, like Nemesis.
There was a boatload of great stuff he wrote. There was some crap. There was also a lot of drek written by other people he gets the blame for and people have held him up as the guy who killed Star Trek, which is absurd.
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Old February 25 2009, 07:40 PM   #64
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Ok, well, he works on 24. Good. That and First Contact are now the two things he's done right. To make me a believer, he'll have to make up for all the Star Drek he wrote.

I sat through a lot of lame-ass Trek hoping beyond hope he'd at least hit a streak of good ones...

Never happened.
That's your problem. That and you blame Braga for stuff he had nothing to do with, like Nemesis.
There was a boatload of great stuff he wrote. There was some crap. There was also a lot of drek written by other people he gets the blame for and people have held him up as the guy who killed Star Trek, which is absurd.
My problem, huh?

I think not.

Anyway, I never credited Braga with Nemesis -- you must have me confused with someone else.

Braga's name is on Voyager. That, and most of his TNG yawnfests is enough for me.

You're quite the Braga fan, aren't you?

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Old February 25 2009, 08:12 PM   #65
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post

M:I 3 also had Phillip Seymour Hoffman!! The guns blazing aspect was pretty much common to all three films and that's where I think they failed. The series was certainly more about intrigue and deception. I don't think Tom Cruise thought too much about that.
All three films had the guns blazing aspect sure, but M:I 3 opened the film with Ving Rhames controlling four large sentry cannons and basically ripping a warehouse to shreds, which pretty much ensures the trilogy's "guns' blazing" difference from the TV shows.

As for "Projections," it's not so much a clunker as it is, in my opinion, average. I always thought of "Latent Image" to be the stronger Doctor piece, that guilt that all MDs feel caused him to reach the holographic equivalent of insanity, and as a result he even goes through an holographic equivalent of the Kubler-Ross model, the five stages of grief. (I just wish the writers hadn't written anything like the Doctor suffering from a subroutine loop or anything like that. The less said about the cause of his condition, the more alive he sounds, which is what the episode was going for in the first place).

The latter technobabble is something I'd attribute to Classic Braga. The mystery and "mind-fuck" aspect I would credit to Menosky again. Still, I think "Latent Image" is a terrifically strong episode.
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Old February 25 2009, 08:29 PM   #66
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
M:I 3 also had Phillip Seymour Hoffman!! The guns blazing aspect was pretty much common to all three films and that's where I think they failed. The series was certainly more about intrigue and deception. I don't think Tom Cruise thought too much about that.
Where do you get that the first M:I had guns blazing? I'm pretty sure Cruise never fired one shot in that movie. The only times guns were fired were the "Jim Phelps death" in the first act and the "struggle on the train where the gun goes off" in the third act.
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Old February 25 2009, 08:30 PM   #67
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

I kind of think of Latent Image as Projections Part II, but yeah..Great episode.


All Modern Trek had a stupid amount of technobabble. I don't think any one writer was guiltier of that than the other. Braga was more of the "mindfuck" guy, imo. Braga gave us Frame of Mind while Menosky gave us Masks (Masaka is waking-ugh!). Most of TNG's (and VOY's) seventh season was pretty bad. I was never that much of a fan of TNG or VOY. Both had some strong episodes, but TNG was preachy and VOY was--uneven.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a Braga fan. He wrote some of my favourite Trek episodes.

I don't think he deserves half the bile he gets. VOY was pretty dull, but Braga was hardly the *only* guy who wrote that show. There was also, Menosky, Biller, Ryan, Sagan who also contributed pretty horrible episodes.
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Old February 25 2009, 08:34 PM   #68
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
I kind of think of Latent Image as Projections Part II, but yeah..Great episode.


All Modern Trek had a stupid amount of technobabble. I don't think any one writer was guiltier of that than the other. Braga was more of the "mindfuck" guy, imo. Braga gave us Frame of Mind while Menosky gave us Masks (Masaka is waking-ugh!). Most of TNG's (and VOY's) seventh season was pretty bad. I was never that much of a fan of TNG or VOY. Both had some strong episodes, but TNG was preachy and VOY was--uneven.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a Braga fan. He wrote some of my favourite Trek episodes.

I don't think he deserves half the bile he gets. VOY was pretty dull, but Braga was hardly the *only* guy who wrote that show. There was also, Menosky, Biller, Ryan, Sagan who also contributed pretty horrible episodes.
Yeah, I can't dispute that!

I...I...I...I got nuthin!
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Old February 25 2009, 08:36 PM   #69
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Aragorn wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
M:I 3 also had Phillip Seymour Hoffman!! The guns blazing aspect was pretty much common to all three films and that's where I think they failed. The series was certainly more about intrigue and deception. I don't think Tom Cruise thought too much about that.
Where do you get that the first M:I had guns blazing? I'm pretty sure Cruise never fired one shot in that movie. The only times guns were fired were the "Jim Phelps death" in the first act and the "struggle on the train where the gun goes off" in the third act.
Guns Blazing wasn't necessarily a literal thing. I used that phrase in the context of Cruise's action packed approach to what was a more cerebral TV show. Making Phelps the bad guy and focusing entirely on Cruise was what ruined M:I for me. So much so I didn't bother with the other two in the theatre. I saw M:I 2 on cable and M:I 3 on a plane. I liked M:I 3 and parts of M:I 2. All three had kewl sploshuns, but M:I 3 really nailed some of the psychological aspects of M:I. the less said about M:I 2, the better. It really didn't matter who wrote that. It was a John Woo film. Nuff said.
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Old February 25 2009, 08:49 PM   #70
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
All Modern Trek had a stupid amount of technobabble. I don't think any one writer was guiltier of that than the other.
Oh, I dunno, I feel like M:I 2 had a ridiculous amount of technobabble for a spy movie, and you know why I'm bringing that opinion of a non-Trek film into a Braga thread

I'd venture that early TNG (perhaps pre-Season 5?) and much of DS9 (due to it being more philosophical and/or war-based) weren't as reliant on technobabble so much, either. I won't go into who wrote what since, as you say, there are more writers on the field than we like to give credit for. In the case of DS9 and their famous large-scale battles, I can think of only one instance where technobabble really was used, too. But I'd argue that there's a consistency of writers between latter TNG, VOY, and ENT who thrived on technobabble, and likewise a consistency of writers on many techno-lite episodes of TNG that went over to DS9 and other projects not really known for tech.

Agreed about TNG S7, though. Strangely enough, it was also the only season up for an Emmy for Best Dramatic Series, which is perhaps why Trek as a whole thought that technobabble = quality.
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Old February 25 2009, 09:09 PM   #71
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

I think DS9 had the benefit of being on a space station and since it ran concurrently with the "shipboard" shows could take more risks in terms of story and conflict. I never really thought of the M:I series in terms of technobabble, so I can't really talk about it with any credibility. All I know is that M:I should have never had John Woo as a director. His style just wasn't right for that in the same way that Joel Schumacher wasn't right for Batman. At the end of the day, how well (or poorly for that matter) a story was written would never overcome the fact that John Woo was at the helm.
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Old February 25 2009, 09:26 PM   #72
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
I think DS9 had the benefit of being on a space station and since it ran concurrently with the "shipboard" shows could take more risks in terms of story and conflict. I never really thought of the M:I series in terms of technobabble, so I can't really talk about it with any credibility. All I know is that M:I should have never had John Woo as a director. His style just wasn't right for that in the same way that Joel Schumacher wasn't right for Batman. At the end of the day, how well (or poorly for that matter) a story was written would never overcome the fact that John Woo was at the helm.
Funny, I feel the same way about Brian DePalma at the helm of the first M:I movie. While he was always one for suspense and layering, he was simply ill-chosen as M:I had never depended on thrills, but rather ingenuity and timing. In effect, he tried to make the first movie psychological and intimidating and he failed on both counts (primarily by, yes, turning Phelps into the traitor, probably even by not developing the character enough in the first place). All in all, great director, poor choice.
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Old February 25 2009, 10:14 PM   #73
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
I think DS9 had the benefit of being on a space station and since it ran concurrently with the "shipboard" shows could take more risks in terms of story and conflict. I never really thought of the M:I series in terms of technobabble, so I can't really talk about it with any credibility. All I know is that M:I should have never had John Woo as a director. His style just wasn't right for that in the same way that Joel Schumacher wasn't right for Batman. At the end of the day, how well (or poorly for that matter) a story was written would never overcome the fact that John Woo was at the helm.
Funny, I feel the same way about Brian DePalma at the helm of the first M:I movie. While he was always one for suspense and layering, he was simply ill-chosen as M:I had never depended on thrills, but rather ingenuity and timing. In effect, he tried to make the first movie psychological and intimidating and he failed on both counts (primarily by, yes, turning Phelps into the traitor, probably even by not developing the character enough in the first place). All in all, great director, poor choice.
I didn't really have as much a problem with the direction of the film as I did with the story. Tom Cruise was riding high on a string of hit action films and tried to make one out of Mission Impossible. That's what didn't work for me.
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Old February 26 2009, 03:44 AM   #74
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

I used "Cause and Effect" and "Projections" as examples because I know specific people who hate them. My mom can't stand "Cause and Effect"; just being reminded of it annoys her. The repetition is like nails on a chalk board to some people. But if you don't have that reaction, it's a brilliant piece of work. As for "Projections", Fatherly Uncle Jim at Delta Blues hated it, while Tim Lynch loved it. (Lynch is the most passionate "Genesis"-hater you'll ever find, btw.)

I've been arguing for years that Braga is widely "misblamed", and it's good to see others agreeing. Of course, to some extent this comes with the territory. The Pope will always take heat when a Catholic priest goes bad; the president is always blamed for every bad thing that happens during his term. Berman's had this treatment even longer than Braga. Nor are the critics always wrong. Braga did make mistakes; Fair Haven happened on his watch, after all. But he's still one of the best writers in modern Trek, and I think that with each year he's no longer in charge, more people will forget he's supposed to be Satan.
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Old February 26 2009, 07:52 AM   #75
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

^True, but nobody is blaming our current economic mess on Cheney.

Most of the VOYAGER Season Seven Sequence of Serious Suckological Shitfest Syndrome™ happened on Ken Biller's watch. He was the showrunner. Braga was busy working on developing Enterprise that year. Biller also wrote the teleplay for Endgame from a story he co-wrote with B&B.
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