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Old February 21 2009, 07:21 PM   #31
RandyS
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
I never had a problem with Endgame. I thought it was a great finale for the series..
I've wondered this myself for years and even started a thread about it a few years back. The result of which basically had the general response of the "B&B Haters" was either "the damage was done" or "B&B were still overseeing the show, so the buck still stops with them."
Well, for me personally, my disapointment (I wouldn't call it hate) for ENDGAME came from the fact that story was not what I was hoping for.

I was hoping that the ship would get home in the first two mintues , and then we see a contingent of Starfleet officers board the ship and do the following:

The Doctor is ripped out of sickbay and sent to a lab so they can:
1. examine his medical files on Delta Quuadrant spieces, and
2. examine HIM to see how they can improve on the EMH Mark 1's.

Chakotay, Paris, Torres, and the rest of the Maquis are arrested and sent back to prison to finish their terms (in the case of Paris), and answer for their crimes (Maquis). Just because the crew forgave and forgot (a survival necessity), doesn't mean that Starfleet was going to.

Seven is arrested and sent to a lab to be dissected in order to find a final solution to the Borg problem.

VOYAGER is impounded for the same reason the Doctor is locked up.

And in the mist of all this, Janeway, Harry, and Tuvok spent the 2 hours trying to get their friends off, which, by the end of the episode, they do, get the ship back, and the show ends with them going off on a regular Starfleet mission.

Chakotay could still become Captain, and Janeway still an Admiral.

That's what I thought would have made ENDGAME great.

Of course, even compared to the ENDGAME we got, TATV is still a nonsensical piece of shit no matter who wrote it.
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Old February 22 2009, 07:19 AM   #32
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
Allow me to point out that Braga has NOTHING to do with Insurrection and Nemesis.
I feel like writers of significant tenure begin, continue, and perpetuate trends in Trek, especially in the TNG/DS9/VOY era. Take Joe Menosky for example... not the best writer Trek has ever had for sure, but he was one of the most involved across most spinoffs, and almost all "high concept" episodes since TNG have been credited to Menosky, at least in terms of inspiration and the number 47. Same deal with, say, RDM and the Klingons (a trend that was explored in ENT, without RDM), or Braga with plots that are more convoluted than they should be, which I do see in Insurrection and Nemesis.

With that said, I did earlier say that I feel his work on 24 surpasses his later work on Trek. If he outright says that 24 is him making up for any shortcomings in, say, Enterprise, I'll probably be the first to believe the guy.
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Old February 22 2009, 08:07 AM   #33
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
Allow me to point out that Braga has NOTHING to do with Insurrection and Nemesis.
I feel like writers of significant tenure begin, continue, and perpetuate trends in Trek, especially in the TNG/DS9/VOY era. Take Joe Menosky for example... not the best writer Trek has ever had for sure, but he was one of the most involved across most spinoffs, and almost all "high concept" episodes since TNG have been credited to Menosky, at least in terms of inspiration and the number 47. Same deal with, say, RDM and the Klingons (a trend that was explored in ENT, without RDM), or Braga with plots that are more convoluted than they should be, which I do see in Insurrection and Nemesis.
Hold on a sec..


You're saying other writers wrote bad stories because they were influenced by Brannon Braga??? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think??

You've lost any morsel of credibility if you really believe that.
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Old February 22 2009, 04:28 PM   #34
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
Allow me to point out that Braga has NOTHING to do with Insurrection and Nemesis.
I feel like writers of significant tenure begin, continue, and perpetuate trends in Trek, especially in the TNG/DS9/VOY era. Take Joe Menosky for example... not the best writer Trek has ever had for sure, but he was one of the most involved across most spinoffs, and almost all "high concept" episodes since TNG have been credited to Menosky, at least in terms of inspiration and the number 47. Same deal with, say, RDM and the Klingons (a trend that was explored in ENT, without RDM), or Braga with plots that are more convoluted than they should be, which I do see in Insurrection and Nemesis.
Hold on a sec..


You're saying other writers wrote bad stories because they were influenced by Brannon Braga??? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think??

You've lost any morsel of credibility if you really believe that.
What credibility did I have in the first place?

But back on point, no no no, that's not what I'm saying necessarily. There are good things and bad things that come with writers who are so intertwined with a TV show. If there's an influence, it's only because it's been built up from being with a franchise for so long. Braga made time travel in Trek more commonplace, for good or for ill depending on your opinion. Name almost any long-term writer on Trek and I can probably cite others who have followed that lead in one way or another.

Again, I go back to the example of Joe Menosky. He wasn't the first to introduce non-corporeal entities or near psychedelic episodes into Trek, as that kind of writing has been going on since TOS. BUT he was responsible for writing so many of those types of episodes in the TNG/DS9/VOY that whenever another writer does it, the staff considers it an influence of Menosky, again for good or for ill. With RDM, if you like or hate the way he portrayed the Klingons, just note how his influence continues to this day. RDM had nothing to do with Enterprise (and I hate Enterprise), but his influence is there, even if he was off-staff.

Let's take First Contact for example: written by RDM and Braga. It's dark, a staple of RDM stories. It's moody, perhaps moreso than the story needs to be, another staple of RDM stories. It's got time travel, a staple of Braga. Its villain has probably a sinister but much too overly-complex plot to achieve her means, something that I would credit to Braga as well. I like First Contact and I'm with the bunch that considers it a fun, top-notch movie, but that one, last aspect I'm going to particularly credit to Braga.

I welcome you to note the positives that Braga's done on Trek, but the only catch is that other Trek writers would have to follow that example. I'm not saying that to be snarky, and clearly on Trek he wasn't my cup of tea, but that influence can go both negative and positive.

Think about it, when Braga retires in his old age and if Trek remains the most notable thing on his life's resume, there could very well be a whole host of writers and creators that will credit him for influencing a style or way to write, as is the case whenever a notable or infamous writer ends his game.
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Old February 22 2009, 04:47 PM   #35
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Brannon Braga didn't invent time travel. Time travel has always been a popular element of sci-fi.

Braga wrote some great mindfuck episodes too. Some of those, believe it or not, didn't involve time travel at all!!

The "influences" you allude to are certainly there, but they can be attributed to a great many writers on Star Trek. Thinking that Braga is the Time Travel guy or Moore is the Klingon Guy or whatever is oversimplifying things. There is always the precedents set by TOS and GR as a guiding principle for all of Star Trek. And there are great episodes and not so great episode that can be attributed to all the writers without generalizing the "style" they write in. RDM and Braga wrote together during their run of TNG, for example. Their collaboration was very intertwined (as they explain in the commentaries for GEN and FC). There were ideas that came from one that I was sure came from the other and vice versa..

I don't think everything you credit (or blame) to certain writers are nearly as black and white as you think they are.

I thought most of the "noted" writers (ie. those whose names I can remember at the moment) had more good than bad. I get the sense that there are some who only want to focus on the bad and blow it all out of reasonable proportion. You'll forgive me, but I find that tiring.
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Old February 22 2009, 05:45 PM   #36
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
Brannon Braga didn't invent time travel. Time travel has always been a popular element of sci-fi.
Never said he invented it, nor am I saying he popularized it. But he did write a significant portion of them. Two of his movies and all three of his series finales all had time travel or some variation there of. That can't be a coincidence.

Braga wrote some great mindfuck episodes too. Some of those, believe it or not, didn't involve time travel at all!!
Sure, and RDM didn't write all the Klingon episodes in existence, either. But they were still the go-to guys when it came to (what I perceive to be) their niches. Again, for good or for ill.

The "influences" you allude to are certainly there, but they can be attributed to a great many writers on Star Trek. Thinking that Braga is the Time Travel guy or Moore is the Klingon Guy or whatever is oversimplifying things. There is always the precedents set by TOS and GR as a guiding principle for all of Star Trek. And there are great episodes and not so great episode that can be attributed to all the writers without generalizing the "style" they write in. RDM and Braga wrote together during their run of TNG, for example. Their collaboration was very intertwined (as they explain in the commentaries for GEN and FC). There were ideas that came from one that I was sure came from the other and vice versa..

I don't think everything you credit (or blame) to certain writers are nearly as black and white as you think they are.
Fair point, but I'm afraid we'd have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's oversimplifying a "style" if it has a considerable impact. After all, fiction breeds fiction. Take, for example, the notion of a hopeful future and a human utopia. That type of story could be (and is usually, at least on this board) cited as Roddenberry-esque despite that he obviously passed on and many many more writers since him have written TV stories about that subject. Roddenberry wasn't the first to write such a vision. And just like Roddenberry, Braga and RDM were two of the leads of later Trek. They can't take all the credit, sure (After all, there's Behr and Piller and all the rest).

I thought most of the "noted" writers (ie. those whose names I can remember at the moment) had more good than bad. I get the sense that there are some who only want to focus on the bad and blow it all out of reasonable proportion. You'll forgive me, but I find that tiring.
You're forgiven, I think I've pretty much forgiven Braga and for the most part (otherwise, would I be endorsing 24? I think I'm also one of only three people on that planet that liked Mission Impossible 2), I've avoided the "Bash Braga" threads in the Star Trek XI board as it really has nothing to do with the movie and is just another venting session. And no, I don't think he's the criminal to human rights as some others make him out to be on this board. But just because I forgive doesn't mean I'll forget
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Old February 22 2009, 06:10 PM   #37
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

From where I sit, Braga had three "questionable" episodes people come back to: Threshold, TATV and ANIS. You probably know I actually liked Threshold and ANIS.

No one can really come up with anything else, so I think Braga's track record of Trek isn't nearly as bad as others would like to think: Three episodes out of 15 years of writing for Star Trek?? Not bad at all.
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Old February 22 2009, 06:24 PM   #38
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

number6 wrote: View Post
From where I sit, Braga had three "questionable" episodes people come back to: Threshold, TATV and ANIS. You probably know I actually liked Threshold and ANIS.
I never knew that about you. I still can't find anyone that liked the aforementioned MI 2. To each his own!

No one can really come up with anything else, so I think Braga's track record of Trek isn't nearly as bad as others would like to think: Three episodes out of 15 years of writing for Star Trek?? Not bad at all.
I don't know about that, I sort of feel like his version of Trek was burnt out midway through Voyager, but you could already tell that about me. So yes, I consider it to be more than three episodes out of 15 years
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Old February 22 2009, 06:30 PM   #39
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
From where I sit, Braga had three "questionable" episodes people come back to: Threshold, TATV and ANIS. You probably know I actually liked Threshold and ANIS.
I never knew that about you. I still can't find anyone that liked the aforementioned MI 2. To each his own!

No one can really come up with anything else, so I think Braga's track record of Trek isn't nearly as bad as others would like to think: Three episodes out of 15 years of writing for Star Trek?? Not bad at all.
I don't know about that, I sort of feel like his version of Trek was burnt out midway through Voyager, but you could already tell that about me. So yes, I consider it to be more than three episodes out of 15 years
I never thought VOY was that great to begin with. I put that moreso on Jeri Taylor. I didn't like her stories in general and she was a co-creator of the show. Mike Piller (imo) was Modern Trek's Gene Coon. He got the premise of the show and never ceased to write great stories, including Insurrection, which I didn't think was a bad film at all, just anticlimactic after the powerhouse of FC. Once he was gone from VOY the series seemed to have no real direction.. That and UPN's constant tinkering and retooling left VOY flapping in the wind. I think if UPN and Paramount had waited a couple of years before going with another Trek series, ENT would have been hailed as a return to form. Most of the people on ENT had worked for Trek since the 80's or 90's. It needed a rest and suffered more from that than the writing skills of any one person.
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Old February 22 2009, 06:43 PM   #40
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

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That and UPN's constant tinkering and retooling left VOY flapping in the wind. I think if UPN and Paramount had waited a couple of years before going with another Trek series, ENT would have been hailed as a return to form.
This I can agree with. I recall reading Braga's commentary on Year of Hell and how he had intended to keep the consequences from the story going on for a few more episodes, something that I think he was finally able to realize S3 of ENT. It wasn't Braga's best work on Trek I think, but a step up in the right direction, at least in terms of narrative consistency and continuity.
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Old February 22 2009, 06:48 PM   #41
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
That and UPN's constant tinkering and retooling left VOY flapping in the wind. I think if UPN and Paramount had waited a couple of years before going with another Trek series, ENT would have been hailed as a return to form.
This I can agree with. I recall reading Braga's commentary on Year of Hell and how he had intended to keep the consequences from the story going on for a few more episodes, something that I think he was finally able to realize S3 of ENT. It wasn't Braga's best work on Trek I think, but a step up in the right direction, at least in terms of narrative consistency and continuity.

It is for this reason primarily that I reject the hatred. That and I was a genuine fan of a lot of what he wrote for all three shows.
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Old February 23 2009, 07:04 PM   #42
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Brannon Braga wrote a lot of good Star Trek, we can't forget that. I think he was just the wrong man to put in charge of the show; that position just doesn't play to his strengths at all. But the idea that he ruined Star Trek is silly.
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Old February 23 2009, 11:31 PM   #43
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I really do blame Berman & Braga for the poor storytelling qualities of VOY, ENT, and the last two movies. But for the past couple years Braga's been owning up to his part, which I appreciate.

I've been watching 24 this season, and I really like it. Braga's doing quite well for himself there. Perhaps all he needed was a break from constant Trek to become good again.
Agreed about Braga on 24...But I think COTO is actually doing more for the show that Braga..

Rob
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Old February 24 2009, 12:25 AM   #44
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

Again Braga had NOTHING to do with the last two Star Trek movies. As far as I know Braga is just a writer on 24. Manny Coto is either head writer or show runner.. I can't recall which at the moment.
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Old February 24 2009, 01:05 AM   #45
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Re: Braga On 'Star Trek: Enterprise'

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Again Braga had NOTHING to do with the last two Star Trek movies. As far as I know Braga is just a writer on 24. Manny Coto is either head writer or show runner.. I can't recall which at the moment.
It'd be funny if Braga is now under Coto (although I think that overall Braga is a better writer).
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