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Old April 22 2009, 02:01 AM   #811
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

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Siddig's acting though...While Lien's was quite good I thought..
Agreed, Lien did a fine job with the role. I still don't know what was up with Siddig in that episode, he wasn't normally a bad actor and had some great scenes in later seasons, but for some reason in The Passenger he was rubbish. He somehow managed to be completely wooden while hamming things up.

Although the worst acting I can remember in Trek has to be the guy who played Cal Hudson in The Maquis. He sounded so bored in every scene that I wouldn't have been surprised if he suddenly fell asleep, even during the climactic space battle.
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Old April 22 2009, 02:12 AM   #812
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hang in there GodBen, you're going trough a rough stretch of episodes, but things kind of improve towards the end of the season. I've been rewatching season 4 and overall I've enjoyed this season far better than 2 and 3.
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Old April 22 2009, 03:36 AM   #813
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I thought Warlord was average. Definitely watchable. Lein does a nice job in it. It doesn't stand out though.

I liked the Q and the Grey. I've noticed a lot of people are really down on all of the Voyager Q episodes, but I enjoy all of them in one way or another. Q has a history of involving humans in his hijinx for no particular reason, so I don't have a problem with him doing it here. Sometimes I think he just wants an audience.

The treknobabble..well I'm just used to it at this point. Sometimes it is tiresome, sometimes it is outlandish, but it's Trek. TNG and Voyager are both full of it, and I never let it ruin an otherwise enjoyable episode.
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Old April 22 2009, 03:59 AM   #814
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.
Did they kiss? I only saw Kes leaning in to kiss the other woman but being called away at the last second, causing me to declare that the writers are cowards. Damn, I might have missed Voyager's greatest moment.
Yeah, my bad. It's been a while. But still, that moment was incredibly overhyped.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Q and the Grey (*)

30 seconds later a group of Humans stormed over the hill and started shooting with weapons that can destroy entire star-systems. I believe that shows the level of thought which went into this episode.

I said back in Deathwish that the "hilarious" antics of Q nearly derailed an attempt to explore an important social issue. Well this time round it gets derailed and falls off a cliff. The first two acts are complete filler about Q trying to get Janeway in the sack, the middle act is okay and the only time things are taken seriously, and the final acts turn into an absurd technobabblely pile of manure. To put it simply, it's crap.
I agree. I enjoyed it, and I might argue it deserves a second star (or at least a half-star for Suzie Plakson), but unfortunately this episode is more cheese than meat.

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Old April 22 2009, 04:21 AM   #815
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
I still remember laughing at how overhyped the part where Kes kisses Tieran's girlfriend was in the previews. Yeah, that's why I tune in. Girls kissing.
Did they kiss? I only saw Kes leaning in to kiss the other woman but being called away at the last second, causing me to declare that the writers are cowards. Damn, I might have missed Voyager's greatest moment.
Yeah, my bad. It's been a while. But still, that moment was incredibly overhyped.
And you can lead a camel to bourbon.
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Old April 22 2009, 03:44 PM   #816
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.
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Old April 22 2009, 06:57 PM   #817
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TNG was the opposite of Voyager in my opinion in that the first season was pretty naff and it got much much better.

I did wonder when I saw Q and the Grey what on earth had happened, I must admit. How far Q had moved from the guy who wanted to kill off humanity and had no respect for Picard to some slapstick guy trying to bed Janeway. I think he had started to soften by All Good Things, haven't seen it for yonks but I remember him and Picard having a fairly civilised conversation towards the end, though I don't remember him being funny - that seems to have been reserved for now.

Oh someone tell me how to post a spoiler!!! I wanted to add something about a certain much debated event in Before Dishonour involving Q, not that anyone probably doesn't know about it by now anyway, and it's just not working!! Anyway, said thing involving Q in BD makes my head hurt a lot it's so different again from either the villain in TNG or the comic in Voyager.

I did enjoy Q and the Grey although as GodBen said in the original post the violent scenes weren't great, ironically proving the point Q made in Encounter at farpoint, albeit possibly in self defence.
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Old April 22 2009, 08:39 PM   #818
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Frazzled wrote: View Post
TNG was the opposite of Voyager in my opinion in that the first season was pretty naff and it got much much better.

I did wonder when I saw Q and the Grey what on earth had happened, I must admit. How far Q had moved from the guy who wanted to kill off humanity and had no respect for Picard to some slapstick guy trying to bed Janeway. I think he had started to soften by All Good Things, haven't seen it for yonks but I remember him and Picard having a fairly civilised conversation towards the end, though I don't remember him being funny - that seems to have been reserved for now.

Oh someone tell me how to post a spoiler!!! I wanted to add something about a certain much debated event in Before Dishonour involving Q, not that anyone probably doesn't know about it by now anyway, and it's just not working!! Anyway, said thing involving Q in BD makes my head hurt a lot it's so different again from either the villain in TNG or the comic in Voyager.

I did enjoy Q and the Grey although as GodBen said in the original post the violent scenes weren't great, ironically proving the point Q made in Encounter at farpoint, albeit possibly in self defence.
Here is a quick wizard for spoiler-posting.

If you look at the bar over this white square where you're writing the text, there are a lot of symbols for smilies, writing text in bold and italics and so on. To the far right is a yellow smilie. Click on that one and the spoiler tags will show up in your text. First write what the spoiler is about (that information will show up on the gray spoiler-button in your text, then write the content of the spoiler between the spoiler tags.

To be sure that you've done the right thing, preview the post before submitting it.

Happy spoiling............or what?
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Old April 22 2009, 08:41 PM   #819
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I like "The Q and the Grey" - it's not the best Q episode, but I enjoy it. What can I say? I just did. The interactions between Janeway and Q were particularly good.

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Old April 22 2009, 09:03 PM   #820
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Here is a quick wizard for spoiler-posting.
Thanks Lynx. Will give it a go.

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Old April 22 2009, 09:21 PM   #821
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Frazzled wrote: View Post
Here is a quick wizard for spoiler-posting.
Thanks Lynx. Will give it a go.

It did work, didn't it?

As for
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Old April 22 2009, 09:32 PM   #822
Praetor
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JustKate wrote: View Post
I like "The Q and the Grey" - it's not the best Q episode, but I enjoy it. What can I say? I just did. The interactions between Janeway and Q were particularly good.
I agree... the real-world friendship between DeLancie and Mulgrew gave them a certain on-screen realism that made it, for me, enjoyable. It is, however, a shame that Q got relegated to comic relief...

Lynx wrote: View Post
It did work, didn't it?

As for
I think you're right. If Q just plain likes Janeway (as opposed to seeing Picard as a worthy adversary/pet - and just finding Sisko no fun at all) it might explain why he played 'softball' when dealing with her in both 'Death Wish' and 'Q and the Grey' - instead of threatening her.
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Old April 22 2009, 10:56 PM   #823
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tomalak wrote: View Post
The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.
I hadn't thought about it this way before but you're right, Q was never just comic relief on TNG, he was always something more. It is almost like as if the Voyager writers didn't get the character.

I'm not sure how true this is, but sfdebris told a story in his review of Q Who that there was a line in the script where Q would shout "Stop! Or you will surely die!" but instead JDL just sat in his chair and said "Oh, please." The guy seemed to have a good handle on his character.


Macrocosm (*½)

AKA Genesis, Part 2. AAKA Brannon Braga has Trouble Learning From His Mistakes.

This is just Genesis again, only this time the hokey evolutionary science is replaced by hokey viral science. And the technobabble, oh lord, the technobabble...

I know this is a bit anal, but how does the macro-virus fly? It makes a buzzing sound like a bee, but it doesn't have any wings, it is just a big floating blob of CGI. This is the sort of thing I found myself thinking while watching the episode, so clearly I was bored. Janeway is an action hero, fine, but seeing her run around the ship in a sweaty tank-top stabbing giant viruses with a convenient knife, and blowing them up in a green explosion using a bomb with a quaint LED timer... they must have realised at some point that they took the concept too far.

The first acts are okay. I knew what was going to happen so there was no sense of mystery, but I do like the idea of coming back to a seemingly empty and powerless ship, that's one of the reasons why I don't hate Genesis. But when Shmullus spends 15 minutes of screen-time explaining everything the story gets lost and completely fails to make sense, there is no explanation as to where the crew is or why the ship is in such a bad state. And the final act is utterly ludicrous.

I'm feeling generous because my game of Empire Total War is going well, so I'll give the episode 2 stars and deduct half a star for Braga copying his own work.
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Old April 22 2009, 11:34 PM   #824
Praetor
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.
I hadn't thought about it this way before but you're right, Q was never just comic relief on TNG, he was always something more. It is almost like as if the Voyager writers didn't get the character.

I'm not sure how true this is, but sfdebris told a story in his review of Q Who that there was a line in the script where Q would shout "Stop! Or you will surely die!" but instead JDL just sat in his chair and said "Oh, please." The guy seemed to have a good handle on his character.
I had heard JDL did a lot of adlibbing...

GodBen wrote: View Post
Macrocosm (*½)
Agreed - I enjoyed this episode a little, only because of Action Hero Janeway - which is only slightly more plausible than Action Hero Picard. But the setup and the 'mystery' of what the macroviruses are makes no sense, nor does how they fly make any sense either.

Why couldn't it have been less about the macrovirus, and more about Janeway's character?
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Old April 23 2009, 01:36 AM   #825
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JustKate wrote: View Post
I like "The Q and the Grey" - it's not the best Q episode, but I enjoy it. What can I say? I just did. The interactions between Janeway and Q were particularly good.
I agree - those two are a hoot to watch together.
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