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Old April 14 2009, 10:51 PM   #706
Dane_Whitman
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

IIRC, the only 'follow-up' to the Doctor's temporary memory loss is a blink and you'll miss it reference in Future's End.

The Swarm part of the episode is rubbish indeed, but it's fun rubbish. At least the aliens looked good. I believe this is the second episode to fully use CGI for the external shots.
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Old April 15 2009, 07:40 AM   #707
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I think the things that Janeway should have mentioned as she was being envious about really was that during the TOS era that hand Phasers were about 40 times more powerful. Tracy was disintegrating Indians by the thousand as he sweeped his phaser from left to right probably using moves learnt on the badmington court.
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Old April 15 2009, 01:57 PM   #708
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
And, in regard to 'regression,' every time Kathy seems to say to hell with the regulations, you can point back to this episode as the starting point.
I suppose I could.... but nah. It's not in my style.

Dane_Whitman wrote: View Post
The Swarm part of the episode is rubbish indeed, but it's fun rubbish. At least the aliens looked good. I believe this is the second episode to fully use CGI for the external shots.
Yeah, they looked cool enough, and the special effects in this season have been much better than season 2 due to the transition to CGI.

I remember reading about the swarm in a magazine before I saw the episode and thought they looked like an interesting new villain, potentially on a level with the Borg. But after seeing the episode I'm glad they decided not to go down the route of having them as recurring villains, they really were just a one-trick pony. It still doesn't excuse how blatant this episode was in making them aliens of the week.
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Old April 15 2009, 06:57 PM   #709
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Flashback (*)

Why does Brannon Braga try to place his episodes inside good Star Trek? Flashback takes place on the Excelsior during the events of TUC, TATV took place during TNG's The Pegasus... stop ruining the legacy of good Trek!

I have a number of issues with this episode which I shall now list because I'm too lazy to form paragraphs around them.

1) Tuvok was not in The Undiscovered Country. He just wasn't.
2) Sulu did not send the Excelsior across the border to rescue Kirk in The Undiscovered Country. He just didn't.
These two points don't bother me for the same reason that they bother you, as Tuvok could have been there and not been seen if the episode made any sense...and the story of what Sulu was up to during the film with a cool cameo by Kang (killed shortly before this episode on DS9). However, the episode is terrible and so these points serve as wasted potential, like much of the series. But this is the episode I cite more often than not when people ask me why Voyager hurts my head.
GodBen wrote: View Post
3) I've seen the opening scene of TUC two dozen times, I can nit-pick the re-shoot of the scene to death.
4) Tuvok has a lot of character moments and back-story, but they are mainly exposition. Show, don't tell.
5) Something goes wrong with the mind meld and JANEWAY COULD DIE!!!
6) Something goes wrong with Tuvok's memories and suddenly Sulu and everyone else can see Janeway. Memories.
7) The falling girl was a memory virus? So it was completely unimportant? Well that was well worth 40 minutes of my time.
8) The montage of the falling girl seen by various different children was unintentionally comedic.
9) The resolution to the problem was technobabble, this is one episode where the resolution needed to stem from the character.

TUC is my favourite Trek film because I love the political element of it, so this episode earned a star based purely on seeing the Excelsior in action under Sulu. But there must have been a better way than this to do a tribute to TOS. Oh wait, there was.
I'd also add another item, which is the main reason I can't stand this episode - the other annoyances are bad enough (and you didn't even name them all) but the deal breaker for me is this:

10) The episode was written to be a cool tie-in to TUC but is centered on the death of a character (Valtain) WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THE END OF THE MOVIE!!!!

How could they write this crap without watching the film? It's just hurts my head so bad! I could overlook the rest of the crappy issues with the episode but this one? It doesn't make any kind of sense.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Chute (***)
I think this episode is pretty good, yet I don't enjoy watching it. Probably for the same reasons you named. I don't love the majority of the prison movies I've seen, and so while this was pretty good - I just don't enjoy it.

Praetorian wrote: View Post
The problem is that the device makes the episode pointless..

It wasn't Kim lashing out..it was the device!
The writers were just having their cake and eating it too...
Having a character do "flawed 20th Century Human" things but still be a "perfect 24th Century Human"...
That's a good point too to a degree. I hadn't thought of that. I guess your point to me, is that it could have been better without the devices, but for me it didn't kill the episode. A lot of Star Trek seems to be afraid of taking such risks, which is too bad, but something I sort of accept on some level. Hmmmm...

GodBen wrote: View Post
It depends on how you view it, I don't see it as the device controlling them, it merely put them under emotional strain so that they would act on their more aggressive instincts. It is similar to how you will lash out at people when you are having a bad day, the increased emotional strain that you are under may have facilitated your aggressive impulse, but it was still you that acted upon that impulse.

I understand what you are saying, but Roddenberry put the writers in a box and if they need to create some way in order to escape it then I'm okay with that.
^^ what you said.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Swarm (**)
Again agreed. Not as excruciatingly bad as 'Flashback' but less than average - and a good example of continuity deprived Janeway behavior - a major sore spot for me.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Every time from now on when Janeway falls back on pointless regulations I can point my finger at this episode as evidence of character regression.
Exactly. Schizophrenic Janeway has arrived. So sad after being my favorite captain in Season 1.
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Old April 15 2009, 08:05 PM   #710
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
10) The episode was written to be a cool tie-in to TUC but is centered on the death of a character (Valtain) WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THE END OF THE MOVIE!!!!

How could they write this crap without watching the film? It's just hurts my head so bad! I could overlook the rest of the crappy issues with the episode but this one? It doesn't make any kind of sense.
I didn't notice that! Oh dear god, how stupid are the writers of this show?!

Which brings us neatly to...


False Profits (½)

Ferengi episodes; you either love them or hate them. Or you think they are okay. Or you just like them. Or you just dislike them. Or you like some and dislike others. Excuse me for a second, I seem to have tangented off onto some form of sine wave.

Anyway, I like some Ferengi episodes, I'm a particularly big fan of DS9's The Magnificent Ferengi. There are others that I hate, and this is one of those. The idea behind the episode is good, but when main characters start doing stupid things in order to service the plot then you know you have a problem, and the characters in this episode act so stupidly that I'm surprised they are able to do more than drool onto their shirts.

Lets examine the scene where Janeway is talking to the Ferengi in the transporter room and the head Ferengi gives a big con of a speech about how they have to be sent back for the sake of the society on the planet. The correct response to that would be "Nice try. Mr Tuvok, take these men to the brig" but instead Janeway falls for their crap and beams them back to the planet. Just how stupid do you have to be to fall victim to the lies of a bunch of Ferengi?!

Then Janeway makes the decision to send someone down to the planet as a Ferengi in order to trick the Ferengi in leaving. Who should she send, the guy who has had prior experience of dealing with the Ferengi, or the guy who never even heard of them until 2 hours ago? The stupidity of sending Neelix down to the planet as a Ferengi is so outrageous that it makes my brain cry tears of blood.

So they go through an elaborate hoax in order to get the Ferengi onto the ship, and what happens? The Ferengi beat up their security officer, steal a shuttle and manage to evade one of the most advanced Federation starships by the cunning use of technobabble. Just how stupid is this crew?!!! They should be forced to wear helmets at all times in case they randomly fall down!!

To make matters worse this is one of those situations where Voyager has an opportunity to get home, yet there is no exploration of what this means for the crew at all. It is just there as a plot-point, there is no emotional resonance for this part of the story so the whole thing is a big waste.

One more point, there is no follow-up on what happened to Shmullus at all, I don't even remember him appearing in the episode. I know this episode was a hold-back from season 2 as evidenced by Michael Piller being listed as an Executive Producer at the end, but this was absolutely the wrong place to put this episode.

Other than Threshold, this is the worst episode of Voyager yet.
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Old April 15 2009, 08:43 PM   #711
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Neogothboy74 wrote:

I'd also add another item, which is the main reason I can't stand this episode - the other annoyances are bad enough (and you didn't even name them all) but the deal breaker for me is this:

10) The episode was written to be a cool tie-in to TUC but is centered on the death of a character (Valtain) WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THE END OF THE MOVIE!!!!

How could they write this crap without watching the film? It's just hurts my head so bad! I could overlook the rest of the crappy issues with the episode but this one? It doesn't make any kind of sense.
Now you are mentioning one of the main reasons why I was, and still are so annoyed with Berman, Braga and the so-called writers of Voyager:

Why were they always so incredible sloppy when it came to such obvious details?

There are simply too many such errors in Voyager and there are no excuses for them. It's downright sloppy and I'm sure that if they had been working on another movie or TV project where continuity is an important part of the show, they would have been fired on the spot. I mean, you don't see that many errors in other series.
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Old April 15 2009, 08:53 PM   #712
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

+1 on your assessment of The Swarm, GodBen. I can't stand blatant inconsistency, a travesty committed numerous times throughout the VOY series.

False Profits was very amusing on the premise of tying in a loose end from TNG. I think a lot more could have been done with it. I'm not interested in the conflicting/impossible Ferengi from TNG... they fare much better in DS9. Quark is a great character, a believable Ferengi. These two clowns that maroon themselves in the Delta quadrant take a very petty pathway to survival... I'd have expected something a little more ingenious. Anyway, it was a cheap teaser to dangle the traveling wormhole 'quick solution' to Voyager's troubles in front of us then yank it away so easily. The whole story had far more potential that was sorely unrealized.
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Old April 15 2009, 08:59 PM   #713
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
10) The episode was written to be a cool tie-in to TUC but is centered on the death of a character (Valtain) WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THE END OF THE MOVIE!!!!

How could they write this crap without watching the film? It's just hurts my head so bad! I could overlook the rest of the crappy issues with the episode but this one? It doesn't make any kind of sense.
I didn't notice that! Oh dear god, how stupid are the writers of this show?!

Which brings us neatly to...


False Profits (½)

Ferengi episodes; you either love them or hate them. Or you think they are okay. Or you just like them. Or you just dislike them. Or you like some and dislike others. Excuse me for a second, I seem to have tangented off onto some form of sine wave.

Anyway, I like some Ferengi episodes, I'm a particularly big fan of DS9's The Magnificent Ferengi. There are others that I hate, and this is one of those. The idea behind the episode is good, but when main characters start doing stupid things in order to service the plot then you know you have a problem, and the characters in this episode act so stupidly that I'm surprised they are able to do more than drool onto their shirts.

Lets examine the scene where Janeway is talking to the Ferengi in the transporter room and the head Ferengi gives a big con of a speech about how they have to be sent back for the sake of the society on the planet. The correct response to that would be "Nice try. Mr Tuvok, take these men to the brig" but instead Janeway falls for their crap and beams them back to the planet. Just how stupid do you have to be to fall victim to the lies of a bunch of Ferengi?!

Then Janeway makes the decision to send someone down to the planet as a Ferengi in order to trick the Ferengi in leaving. Who should she send, the guy who has had prior experience of dealing with the Ferengi, or the guy who never even heard of them until 2 hours ago? The stupidity of sending Neelix down to the planet as a Ferengi is so outrageous that it makes my brain cry tears of blood.

So they go through an elaborate hoax in order to get the Ferengi onto the ship, and what happens? The Ferengi beat up their security officer, steal a shuttle and manage to evade one of the most advanced Federation starships by the cunning use of technobabble. Just how stupid is this crew?!!! They should be forced to wear helmets at all times in case they randomly fall down!!

To make matters worse this is one of those situations where Voyager has an opportunity to get home, yet there is no exploration of what this means for the crew at all. It is just there as a plot-point, there is no emotional resonance for this part of the story so the whole thing is a big waste.

One more point, there is no follow-up on what happened to Shmullus at all, I don't even remember him appearing in the episode. I know this episode was a hold-back from season 2 as evidenced by Michael Piller being listed as an Executive Producer at the end, but this was absolutely the wrong place to put this episode.

Other than Threshold, this is the worst episode of Voyager yet.
Well, first I must say that I actually like this episode.

It's funny and actually entertaining, however with a bitter after-taste because of the end scenes when the attempt to go back to Federation space fails. (I must admit that, due to later events, I actually have wished many times that they should have been able to return to the Alpha Quadrant there and then.)

Anyway, the episode has its bright spots and Neelix is actually great as a Ferengi. I also liked the fact that they did a follow-up to the TNG episode "The Price". I also wish that there would have been some follow-up on "Flase Profits" as well in some episode, movie or book. I just want to know what happened to our dear Ferengi.

However, once again I must agree with GodBen in his criticizm. If I had been Janeway, the Ferengi had been thrown into the brig without hesitation. And yes, I would have sent Paris (and maybe Chakotay too) down to the planet to clear things up, not Neelix.

And yes, the Ferengi gets away too easy at the end.

However, despite certain flaws, I do find this episode enjoyable and gives it 3 points out of 5.

As for the "Shmullus problem" mentioned, I must say that I find the US airing of the episodes a bit peculiar. In Europe, "False Profits" was aired after "Sacred Ground" and before "Flashback" which is also more appropriate to a Voyager timeline based on the Stardates. I watch the episode in Stardate order and in that case, the problems with "Shmullus" should have been followed up in "Furure's End". However, according to the Stardates, there are 22 days between the events in "The Swarm" and the events in "Future's End" which might have been enough time for Shmullus" to be restored to normal.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/P.../timeline.html
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Old April 15 2009, 09:39 PM   #714
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

What's with referring to the Doctor as "Shmullus" when the character himself obviously changed his mind about taking a name?
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Old April 15 2009, 09:57 PM   #715
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

StarryEyed wrote: View Post
What's with referring to the Doctor as "Shmullus" when the character himself obviously changed his mind about taking a name?
You'll have to ask GodBen about that. I wrote "Shmullus" in my comment to his post becase he used the name "Shmullus".

Personally I think that "Shmullus" is a good name for our favorite Doc but I prefer "Zimmerman" or simply "The Doctor".
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Old April 16 2009, 01:10 AM   #716
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

StarryEyed wrote: View Post
What's with referring to the Doctor as "Shmullus" when the character himself obviously changed his mind about taking a name?
It's not obvious, it was never brought up again other than one scene in Resolutions. No explanation was given as to why he chose not to use the name, or even if he chose not to use the name. We can assume that he chose not to take the name, but all it would be is an assumption since there is no on-screen evidence to support it. Since I am only left to assume what happened, I choose to assume that Shmullus kept the name but never bothered to tell anybody else in the crew because it was so personal to him. To others he is just the Doctor, but inside he knows that his real name is Shmullus.

Or it is a really poor recurring joke. It's one or the other but I can't remember which and I'm too stubborn to stop now.
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Old April 16 2009, 01:51 AM   #717
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I found 'False Profits' enjoyable, but it has TONS of plot holes, and, yeah, the crew didn't try nearly hard enough to get through that wormhole. I might give it a full star.
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Old April 16 2009, 02:09 AM   #718
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Agreed, I find False Profits a terrible bore. The last thing VOY needed was a Ferengi episode, it wasn't funny and the crew was acting beyond stupid.
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Old April 16 2009, 04:50 AM   #719
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post

As for the "Shmullus problem" mentioned, I must say that I find the US airing of the episodes a bit peculiar. In Europe, "False Profits" was aired after "Sacred Ground" and before "Flashback" which is also more appropriate to a Voyager timeline based on the Stardates. I watch the episode in Stardate order and in that case, the problems with "Shmullus" should have been followed up in "Furure's End". However, according to the Stardates, there are 22 days between the events in "The Swarm" and the events in "Future's End" which might have been enough time for Shmullus" to be restored to normal.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/P.../timeline.html

Hey Lynx, thanks for the link to the stardate timeline, I've been looking for something like that. Good work. Were you ever going to finish the other seasons? Or do you not want to because Kes is gone?
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Old April 16 2009, 07:09 AM   #720
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

PolloCaballo wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

As for the "Shmullus problem" mentioned, I must say that I find the US airing of the episodes a bit peculiar. In Europe, "False Profits" was aired after "Sacred Ground" and before "Flashback" which is also more appropriate to a Voyager timeline based on the Stardates. I watch the episode in Stardate order and in that case, the problems with "Shmullus" should have been followed up in "Furure's End". However, according to the Stardates, there are 22 days between the events in "The Swarm" and the events in "Future's End" which might have been enough time for Shmullus" to be restored to normal.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/P.../timeline.html

Hey Lynx, thanks for the link to the stardate timeline, I've been looking for something like that. Good work. Were you ever going to finish the other seasons? Or do you not want to because Kes is gone?
Good question. To be honest, I havent really decided what to do yet.

When I did create that timeline, I decided to keep it into the parameters of the website which is the "Star Trek Voyager-The Kes Seasons". However, sometimes I've been thinking about expanding it to the other seasons as well.

The problem is that I don't have any season 4-7 DVD:s and to be honest, I don't have any intention to watch those episodes again.And what's worse, I haven't read the season 4-7 books which is necessary in order to create a correct timeline. I must add that I have spent a lot of time editing the timeline, sorting out certain errors.

Of course, I could simply use the old timeline created by Will Eckert and the timeline in "Voyager Of Imagination" and create one out of that. It's not impossible that I will do so in a not too deistant future. We'll see.
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