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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 2 2009, 07:56 PM   #2491
SJSharksfan39
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This has been an interesting thread. It was fun reading, even if I disagreed with most of it, but still fun. Thanks for doing it.
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Old September 2 2009, 08:20 PM   #2492
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It's been a terrific and fun thread. I agreed with the vast majority of the reviews. Thanks, TheGodBen! Looking forward to Enterprise.
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Old September 2 2009, 10:05 PM   #2493
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen, you pretty much seem to have thoughts that mirror my own with regards to Voyager and Enterprise, so I look forward to your Enterprise reviews. I think it's shocking how quickly I gave up on regularly watching Voyager and when I gave up on watching "special episodes" (I'm not sure if I saw an episode between Dark Frontier and the finale). At the very least, you've inspired me to watch Voyager again and catch up on the episodes I missed. I hope you can live with yourself

BTW, I would have given Endgame 2 stars pretty much for the reason you gave it 1 1/2. It was at least entertaining. It cheats in many ways, it doesn't really give a proper send-odd to anyone, and it's full of logical contradictions. But there are worse ways to spend two hours.
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Old September 3 2009, 01:58 AM   #2494
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
At the very least, you've inspired me to watch Voyager again and catch up on the episodes I missed. I hope you can live with yourself
Misery loves company.

And thanks again to everyone for their kind words, hopefully most of you will continue along in the Enterprise thread, but if not then I can understand why.


Once more with feeling:

Season 7 Review



There's a very standard looking graph; it goes up and down, up and down, I don't have all that much to say about it. The average score for the season was 4.792, slightly below average but up a tiny bit from season 6. The trendline is going down very slightly, but like season 5 this was a very consistent season in terms of quality. It certainly wasn't as bad as I remembered it.



Your standard bell-curve with a bit of a tail on the high end. There was a lot of average or "meh" episodes, but there was no episodes I considered to be outstandingly bad this season, and Author, Author stood out as being very good.

13 episodes were below average, 4 were average and 7 were above average, which almost makes this season seem more terrible than it is.
Best episode: Author, Author
Worst episode: Q2


The Writers

I'm only going to take a look at this season's results this time, the final results for the writers will come in my overall series review. It is interesting to note that the writer I considered to be best this season was James Khan with a score of 5.75, but since he only wrote those four episodes in all of Voyager's run he falls one short of being included.



The best included writer this season was Raf Green who returned to write three more episodes that gave him a score of 5.667. After him is Bryan Fuller who bounced back from a disastrous result last season to score a respectable 5.333 out of 3 episodes. Sussman joined the staff this season by writing four episodes with Phyllis Strong, a writing partnership which I believe will last throughout Enterprise's run, and he scores an average 5. Biller took over as head writer but only earned a score of 4.75, while Michael Taylor takes another knock back to 4.5. Robert Doherty recovers a small bit of ground to score 4 out of 5 episodes. But the two losers this season were Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky; Braga only wrote two episodes to score 3.5, while Menosky mirrors his debut on the show by only writing 1 episode this season and that episode scored a 3 as opposed to a 7.


What Would TheGodBen Do?

Brannon Braga and Rick Berman are off in their offices together giving life to Enteprise and Joe Menosky quits because he is tired of me making fun of him even though he's actually a good enough writer. Berman fears Kenneth Biller because his elbow clicks, so he hires me as the new head writer. How would I have done things differently?

At this point in the show it would be far too late for me to remake it in my image, the best I could hope to do with this final season is to get in touch with these characters and give them a proper send-off. I think that the final episode should have devoted 20-30 minutes of showing Voyager's triumphant homecoming, we can watch Voyager land in San Fransisco properly and see the crew disembark into the arms of their families and friends. One thing I thought I was going to hate about season 7 was the two-way communication with Starfleet, but that actually threw up some good scenes and I think that is one thing the final few episodes could have used more of as a means to wrap up the character arcs.

I do like Brannon Braga's idea of the final season being a tragic one for Seven where she ultimately has to sacrifice herself to get Voyager home. There is something poetic about the girl who never wanted to be human eventually becoming one of us until she makes the noblest decision she can make. It is one of the things I sort of like about Data's death in Nemesis, but the way it was executed in that movie made the whole thing seem kind of stupid. And if it would have achieved anything then at least it would have replaced the awkwardness of C/7.

There were some things about season 7 I really liked for the most part, the big one being Shmully's arc about fighting for holographic rights. It could have used more work to explain some of the details about how it is that holograms manage to become sentient, and Flesh and Blood desperately needed a different second part. Another good thing about season 7 was the B'Elanna/Tom coupling, which I admit I was dubious about at first but it turned out some of the best episodes of the season. These two characters came a long way since Caretaker, I would have never believed when I first saw Voyager that they would have ended up as they did, but it worked quite well.


In Summation

This was the season where I gave up on Voyager while it was on air, and it gets a lot of criticism from fans of the show, so I was surprised to find that it wasn't as bad as it could have been. It had too many filler episodes, and there did seem to be a lack of ambition, but there was some very nice character pieces mixed in that helped to buoy the season up. Not a bad season, but a little disappointing overall.
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Old September 3 2009, 03:18 AM   #2495
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It was a fun ride THEGodBen. I'm kind of sad to see it end and I won't be following you over to your Enterprise reviews. I'll be back when you tackle DS9 or TOS though.

From the beginning I've felt like you were too hard on the show. But by your standards you were fair. You are a self confessed continuity/arc whore (I say that with love pal ) and Voyager has serious problems with one, and very little of the other.

I think these are legitimate complaints, but the show just wasn't set up to be like that. Voyager was never a really deep show in the same way something like DS9 was. For me, Voyager was more of a fun show and I enjoyed the switch to a more episodic format after DS9's arc heavy run.

Despite my disagreements with you, I've really enjoyed reading these and I appreciate all of the thought and time you put into this. This was always the 1st thread I would check when I logged in, and I'll miss that!

I wonder if someday you might soften your feelings about the show a bit or see it in a better light? Only time will tell. Let's see your take on the show again in 10 years! That should be enough time for you to recover.
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Old September 3 2009, 03:40 AM   #2496
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
It is interesting to note that the writer I considered to be best this season was James Khan with a score of 5.75, but since he only wrote those four episodes in all of Voyager's run he falls one short of being included.
I have to give him credit since he did well with so few episodes as compared to Nick Sagan in season five. Plus I knew his writing from Melrose Place where he wrote some of my favorite episodes.

A lot of fans were jumping for joy when they heard B&B were leaving VOY to Ken Biller this season. I was never a fan of his as a writer and as a showrunner not too crazy about that either.

This season needed some big arc to drive it to its conclusion like the Unimatrix Zero rebellion and the homecoming. It was ridiculous that they didn't mine the one or two big ideas that were actually decent by turning them into arcs rather than trying to squeeze the last of their creative energies into the multitude of filler episodes that couldn't justify their existence in the season.

At the very least they could have devoted the last six episodes to a homecoming arc.

DS9 still has the best final season which was its best season overall in my opinion when it comes to Trek shows and one of the best final seasons in sci-fi outperforming nBSG, The X-Files etc. "All Good Things" is still the best series finale with "What You Leave Behind" is a close second. Voy's final season might be a tad better than TNG's.
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Old September 3 2009, 07:47 PM   #2497
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I agree with Startrekwatcher - DS9 has the best final season. I don't even really like DS9 very much, but boy did I enjoy those final few episodes. Makes me want to weep when I think of how good Voyager, which I generally love so much more, could have been. Hey ho - from such disappointments spring masses and masses of fanfic!

THEGodBen - I agree with your summary of endgame, all except your Homecoming point. I used to think that it would've been great to see them disembark, but now I've decided it's perfect leaving it to the imagination. Besides, in my opinion treklit totally screwed the Homecoming, I hated that book - at least it's not Canon, onscreen such rubbish would be.

Can I also add my appreciation of TGB here? I haven't agreed with more than about half you've said, but you've really made me laugh, thankyou! I'm disappointed it's finished!
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Old September 3 2009, 10:05 PM   #2498
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I do like Brannon Braga's idea of the final season being a tragic one for Seven where she ultimately has to sacrifice herself to get Voyager home. There is something poetic about the girl who never wanted to be human eventually becoming one of us until she makes the noblest decision she can make.
Now here's where I really disagree with you. I've heard this suggestion before and I flat out hate it! Why should Seven have to be noble? I don't want the abnormal person to have to die so the normal people can live and I really think that if someone has to make a noble sacrifice it's just too easy for it to be the one person who has no loved ones back home, the person who wasn't desperate to get to Earth anyway. I'm very glad they didn't decide to go down this road.
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Old September 3 2009, 11:22 PM   #2499
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post
Now here's where I really disagree with you. I've heard this suggestion before and I flat out hate it! Why should Seven have to be noble? I don't want the abnormal person to have to die so the normal people can live and I really think that if someone has to make a noble sacrifice it's just too easy for it to be the one person who has no loved ones back home, the person who wasn't desperate to get to Earth anyway. I'm very glad they didn't decide to go down this road.
QFT. Why should Seven sacrifice herself just because her parents were criminally negligent and let her get assimilated by the Borg? Don't you think she suffered enough with the memory of all that she did as part of the Collective? And all the ongoing medical crap she had to deal with due to her implants? And the fact that most people didn't truly accept her (at least not for a while)?

I think Seven sacrificing herself would have been really cheap -- just a suicide.
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Old September 4 2009, 12:20 AM   #2500
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
A lot of fans were jumping for joy when they heard B&B were leaving VOY to Ken Biller this season. I was never a fan of his as a writer and as a showrunner not too crazy about that either.
Ken Biller wasn't that great a writer on Voyager, but he wasn't awful, and I think the same can be said for his tenure as head writer. But they had to hand it over to him, he was the next rung down after Braga and they couldn't hire somebody else to do the show just for one year. I wonder what that felt like for him, to know that he was in charge for the final year because everyone above him buggered off.

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post
Now here's where I really disagree with you. I've heard this suggestion before and I flat out hate it! Why should Seven have to be noble? I don't want the abnormal person to have to die so the normal people can live and I really think that if someone has to make a noble sacrifice it's just too easy for it to be the one person who has no loved ones back home, the person who wasn't desperate to get to Earth anyway. I'm very glad they didn't decide to go down this road.
It stems back to something Data said in Time's Arrow; he found it reassuring to know that he would die some day because that made him feel more normal. Dying is normal, it is going to happen to every one of us, so having Seven die would be the ultimate act of normalcy for her character, it would make her more human in my eyes.

As for having nobody caring about her back home, that doesn't matter too much because it would have a huge impact on the crew, particularly Janeway. The crew are the ones we got to know over the last seven years so seeing them react to Seven's death would have been more powerful than watching some random characters we've not seen before reacting to it.
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Old September 4 2009, 05:54 AM   #2501
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
What Would TheGodBen Do?
I've lurked and enjoyed the thread as well, very entertaining.


I did find this portion particularly uninspired though. I think it would've been easy to create a more interesting season 7. If Voyager returned home midway through the season, it would've added a lot of story potential. Beyond the idea of what their lives would've been like after returning to the alpha quad, there could've been a threat that followed them from the DQ. Or whatever.
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Old September 4 2009, 06:24 AM   #2502
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Even though I only posted once before, (something like 2000+ posts ago), I read every post. Thanks to TheGodBen (and others) for an entertaining thread!
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Old September 4 2009, 10:06 AM   #2503
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Reading this thread was an interesting experience for me and I've enjoyed it very much, even though I disagree with many of the reviews.
I very like TNG, but Voyager is the only Star Trek series I`m really a great fan of.

TheGodBen thank you for many entertaining hours and I hope that there is a little love in yout heart for the wonderful Voyagercrew and -cast.
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Old September 4 2009, 12:48 PM   #2504
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
It stems back to something Data said in Time's Arrow; he found it reassuring to know that he would die some day because that made him feel more normal. Dying is normal, it is going to happen to every one of us, so having Seven die would be the ultimate act of normalcy for her character, it would make her more human in my eyes.
Ah, but it's normal for Borg to die! We've seen Borg drones die in their thousands, I would prefer to see Seven live as an individual! She's come a long way in a short period, I don't like the idea of that all coming to an end so that some less interesting characters who've had the chance to live much more of a life than she has can survive.
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Old September 4 2009, 04:05 PM   #2505
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen, this thread has been awesome, even if I have been too busy to keep up with your review of season seven. I seem to remember thinking when I used to review VOY eps that the season wasn't as bad as some poeple insisted. More of the same really.

It's been brilliant reading along and I'll be there for the ENT thread. I only saw season one before giving up on the show, until DVDs let me burst through the show. Seasons 3 and 4 (more 3 in my eyes) are quite good really, and probably better than a lot of what VOY offered in its later years.

I have to say though that the ENT characters don't touch the VOY ones in my opinion, which is something I wouldn't have thought possible! For all of VOY's weaknesses, the crew felt like more of a family.
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