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Old June 1 2009, 02:35 PM   #1531
Tachyon
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sorry, I don't watch Enterprise. So far my Trek begins with TOS and ends with Voyager (+ the new movie of course).
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Old June 1 2009, 03:33 PM   #1532
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well I'm not sure how much of it you've watched but you should give Enterprise a try, much like Voyager it is unfairly maligned by many in the fanbase. The first two seasons are like Voyager but with better inter-episode continuity; they just fly around the galaxy on their own bumping into new aliens every week. The continuity in the show was actually fairly good, if the ship was damaged one week (Minefield) then they would have to find a place to repair the next (Dead Stop). If they said they were going to Risa in an episode (Fallen Hero) then they would still be heading there the next week (Desert Crossing) and they would finally arrive in the episode after that (Two Days and Two Nights).

Season 3 was what Year of Hell should have been, a year-long arc which puts the crew in a highly dangerous region of space and it doesn't end in a reset button. And the final season is more fan-wank than Trials and Tribbleations and Trek XI put together, so if you're into the sort of thing you might enjoy it.

I don't think it was a great show, but it did address many of the issues I had with Voyager.
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Old June 1 2009, 03:49 PM   #1533
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I know GodBen. And if you have given Voyager a chance, I may very well do the same with Enterprise one day.

I have seen handful of Enterprise episodes, tho. The ones in the fan collections. I did like the pilot episode. It was alright for me. But I just don't feel the crew at all. Like asked in another thread - why do people like Voyager- it comes down to likeable characters. At least for me. I loved Picard's gang, liked Sisko's gang a lot, and Janeway's crew... well, I guess you can imagine my thoughts on them. Tee hee. But something is off when it comes to Enterprise.
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Old June 1 2009, 04:11 PM   #1534
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

That's true, the characters on Enterprise weren't great, but I do think they got better in the later seasons. Archer's transformation in the third season from naive moron to determined moron was good, and I grew to like Trip, Phlox and Reed. I never liked T'Pol all that much, and Hoshi and Travis could have been replaced by manikins soon after the pilot with no significant changes to the show.
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Old June 1 2009, 06:40 PM   #1535
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
If we're splitting it three ways then we'll need more than a twelve-pack. I am Irish, after all.
Gah, you're right! This one, he's more liquor than man!

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Hey, I liked Klingon Neelix. Am I falsely remembering a Klingon Janeway?
Klingon Janeway was the big WTF beginning of the first part. As for Klingon Neelix, he made absolutely no sense because he still looked like a Talaxian but with head ridges. I mean, what the hell? A half-magic holodeck?
Ah, glad I wasn't hallucinating. I liked the sight gag of the Klingonized Talaxian, but that was about it.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Nightingale.

Voyager was planetside in pieces, and the baddies were bombing her from orbit because Kim doesn't understand that choosing sides in a war is a prime directive and non interference violation.
And that made so little sense for so many reasons. Apparently, warp coils can just be hoisted out and serviced in a planetary atmosphere?

Incidentally, I was reading the TNG TM the other day, and the part about warp coils imposed some rather interesting limits in regard to coil service and lifespan that VGR clearly violated - but I guess since it's not canon it didn't matter.

Tachyon wrote: View Post
brcarthey wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
Hmm... Episode about Voyager getting repaired. B'Elanna fixing things with her staff and others contemplating how bad Voyager's condition is.... Something worth telling for 40 minutes? Riiight. I guess I have different ideas about what constitutes an episode worth watching.
it's not like we were ever treated to episodes where voyager had to run in "gray mode" or had to set down on a planet for a major overhaul of the warp drive.
And why would such a story be worth telling? Why would the viewers want to see something like that for 40 minutes?
Well, you work it into the background of the story, or:

apenpaap wrote: View Post
We don't even nmeed to see it. They can just make the first line of the episode: "Captain's log, stardate 47474.7: we have left the repair station of the friendly aliens who helped us reverse the damage the Hirogen caused. Now on to the crisis of the week."
That works too.

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Hmmm....even Enterprise managed to make one of its more interesting episodes about this very premise.

Good writers manage to incorporate those details into stories rather than simply ignore them.
Yeah, I'm not quick to defend "Enterprise" but that was a relatively good episode.

GodBen wrote: View Post
That's true, the characters on Enterprise weren't great, but I do think they got better in the later seasons. Archer's transformation in the third season from naive moron to determined moron was good, and I grew to like Trip, Phlox and Reed. I never liked T'Pol all that much, and Hoshi and Travis could have been replaced by manikins soon after the pilot with no significant changes to the show.
"Naive moron to determined moron."
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Old June 1 2009, 08:37 PM   #1536
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Damage" was a great episode but Enterprise's first two seasons really aren't really that good.
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Old June 2 2009, 12:49 AM   #1537
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Vis Vis ()

The episode starts out in the holodeck, which I assumed meant that Tom was trying to fix it after the whole grid was overloaded in the last episode, but apparently not. Then Shmully shows up complaining that Tom hasn't been spending any time in sickbay over the last few weeks, which I assumed would lead to a comment about sickbay being blowed up real good last week, but that didn't happen. Then it is revealed that Tom is now obsessed with repairing a 20th century car, which I assumed would somehow be tied into him being trapped in that 20th century setting last week, but no he is just being an obsessive ass. By the time we got to sickbay half way through the episode and saw that it was in the same pristine condition it was in before being blowed up real good... I was disappointed. At that point I realised it must have been a production goof and that this episode was produced at a different time and placed here as a mistake, so I checked the production number and was shocked to see that the episode is exactly where it should be.

Considering the events of the past two episodes, I've deducted a whole star from this episode's score for completely ignoring one of the major events of this series. I can understand them wanting to forget that space nazis ever happened, but I don't think that is what happened here.

I must confess that I never liked Tom Paris and one of the surprising things about this rewatch is that I actually find him quite likable (not including the times he makes sarcastic comments on the bridge). Seeing this episode again made me realise that the reason I've disliked him for so long is almost entirely based on this episode where for no apparent reason he is portrayed as a lazy and annoying jerk. That should make him my role-model you say, and I respond by calling you cheeky and dying a little inside.

I didn't like the episode, I didn't like Tom's characterisation, I didn't like how Tom solved a 24th century technology problem with his knowledge of 20th century automobiles (although my understanding of 17th century stage-coaches has proved very useful in my IT jobs), and I don't like seeing Bulldog with hair. It's just wrong.
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Old June 2 2009, 12:53 AM   #1538
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
The episode starts out in the holodeck, which I assumed meant that Tom was trying to fix it after the whole grid was overloaded in the last episode, but apparently not. Then Shmully shows up complaining that Tom hasn't been spending any time in sickbay over the last few weeks, which I assumed would lead to a comment about sickbay being blowed up real good last week, but that didn't happen. Then it is revealed that Tom is now obsessed with repairing a 20th century car, which I assumed would somehow be tied into him being trapped in that 20th century setting last week, but no he is just being an obsessive ass. By the time we got to sickbay half way through the episode and saw that it was in the same pristine condition it was in before being blowed up real good... I was disappointed. At that point I realised it must have been a production goof and that this episode was produced at a different time and placed here as a mistake, so I checked the production number and was shocked to see that the episode is exactly where it should be.
You, Sir, are a very mean man. But you are absolutely right.

GodBen wrote: View Post
... and I don't like seeing Bulldog with hair. It's just wrong.
Wow, I didn't even notice that it was good ol' Bulldog!
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Old June 2 2009, 01:08 AM   #1539
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The episode was really unbelievably mediocre and mundane, I literally can't remember anything that happened in it except for the body switch and I watched it just last summer.
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Old June 2 2009, 01:26 AM   #1540
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Wow, I didn't even notice that it was good ol' Bulldog!
Probably because he wasn't constantly shouting and barking.
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Old June 2 2009, 03:22 AM   #1541
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, last time this episode come on air, I sat through about ten minutes and then shut the TV off. Just could not sit through it. I can't stand the idea that the writers seemed to have gone with - 'We need Tom to be a total ass for this story to happen, so, ass he shall be.' Tom's in the lead on my list of favorite characters based on his personality, which is closer to my own that the other crew, so seeing that tossed aside so they can get this lame body snatchers riff to work... Not pleasing to me.
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Old June 2 2009, 03:58 AM   #1542
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Vis Vis ()

The episode starts out in the holodeck, which I assumed meant that Tom was trying to fix it after the whole grid was overloaded in the last episode, but apparently not. Then Shmully shows up complaining that Tom hasn't been spending any time in sickbay over the last few weeks, which I assumed would lead to a comment about sickbay being blowed up real good last week, but that didn't happen. Then it is revealed that Tom is now obsessed with repairing a 20th century car, which I assumed would somehow be tied into him being trapped in that 20th century setting last week, but no he is just being an obsessive ass. By the time we got to sickbay half way through the episode and saw that it was in the same pristine condition it was in before being blowed up real good... I was disappointed. At that point I realised it must have been a production goof and that this episode was produced at a different time and placed here as a mistake, so I checked the production number and was shocked to see that the episode is exactly where it should be.

Considering the events of the past two episodes, I've deducted a whole star from this episode's score for completely ignoring one of the major events of this series. I can understand them wanting to forget that space nazis ever happened, but I don't think that is what happened here.

I must confess that I never liked Tom Paris and one of the surprising things about this rewatch is that I actually find him quite likable (not including the times he makes sarcastic comments on the bridge). Seeing this episode again made me realise that the reason I've disliked him for so long is almost entirely based on this episode where for no apparent reason he is portrayed as a lazy and annoying jerk. That should make him my role-model you say, and I respond by calling you cheeky and dying a little inside.

I didn't like the episode, I didn't like Tom's characterisation, I didn't like how Tom solved a 24th century technology problem with his knowledge of 20th century automobiles (although my understanding of 17th century stage-coaches has proved very useful in my IT jobs), and I don't like seeing Bulldog with hair. It's just wrong.
you make it sound like that's all there was to this episode. you completely disregard the body switching and the premise of the not knowing how good one's got it until they don't. i admit this is not my favorite tom-centric episode either, but your review just seems off or incomplete. he's not a perfect person and i think the writers just tried to over-emphasize that here to the point of melodramatism. but he does try to atone for his transgressions at the end.

but, my bigger concern is how the writers treated the incident b/t the fake tom and b'elanna. i've always wondered if the fake tom and b'elanna had make-up sex (which i think they did), wouldn't that be considered sexual assault b/c that dude wasn't tom and took advantage of an unsuspecting b'elanna?
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Old June 2 2009, 05:10 AM   #1543
Tachyon
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Vis Vis... oy. I might give it *. Definitely one of the weakest on season 4.
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Old June 2 2009, 12:54 PM   #1544
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hi - I'm new on these boards but found this thread and have had a great time reading it so far - it has even inspired me to dust off my Voyager DVDs and rewatch the series. Though perhaps starting off with The Killing Game & Vis Vis was not the best idea!

My main issue with Vis is that it is so contrived - it seems like the writers came up with a story about body swapping with a moral at the end of the tale about learning to appreciate what you've got and then decided to fit Paris into it. So he acts like he does because that is what the plot needs not because that is what the character is like. Here's where a bit of continuity may have helped - if we had seen Tom feeling bored and wanting a change for a few episodes then the theme of this episode might have had an impact but when the problem comes out of nowhere in the same episode that the main threat provides the solution to it then it feels more like a cartoon story than a real exploration of character.

On top of that it doesn't help that it comes straight after The Killing Game - surely fighting space Nazi's was out of the ordinary enough for him!

Tom isn't the only one who suffers from the plot though - poor Chakotay is required to look stupid in the initial bridge scenes and then at the climax so that Tom can be the dynamic hero in this episode. Oh and another place where the damage in the last episode could have been mentioned - B'elanna says she can't go down to the planet with fake Tom because she doesn't even have an hour to spare as she is so busy. They could have said she was still cleaning up the Hirogen mess but they didn't so now it just looks like she's busy because that's what the plot required - the rest of the crew look pretty calm after all. I'm probably being a bit unfair here as all TV uses these shortcuts from time to time but it really stands out given how dull the episode is.

One last thing - I'm not sure having your two guest actors doing all the heroic things at the end of the episode is a great idea- I know Bulldog is supposed to be Tom at that point but there's very little difference in this performance to his version of Stef (or whatever he was called) at the beginning. All in all it's a very flat ending.

Oh well here's hoping for better in the next episode.
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Old June 2 2009, 07:25 PM   #1545
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I don't care much for Vis Vis, but one thing that stood out to me was the excellent design of the alien starships we see (briefly) in this episode. What a shame they were wasted on such an episode!
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