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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 5 2009, 12:54 AM   #151
Praetor
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Has Harry Kim suffered yet today?
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Old March 5 2009, 02:58 AM   #152
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I'll let the immortal Apollo finish for me. Take it away, Lee...

Apollo wrote:
I'd say we're very forgiving of mistakes. We make our own laws now, our own justice. We've been pretty creative at finding ways to let people off the hook for everything from theft to murder. And we've had to be because... because we're not a civilization anymore. We are a gang. And we're on the run. And we have to fight to survive. We have to break rules. We have to bend laws. We have to improvise.
That's a great quote from an awesome show. However, I still don't believe it applies in Voyager's case. Those on Galactica were pretty mucy the remnants of the human race. Their civilization was for all intents and purposes wiped out. They have a slim hope of establishing themselves somewhere else and MAYBE preventing what's left of their race from dying out.

Voyager on the other hand while a long way from home still had a home and a civilization to go back to. The belief was that someday they would get back to that civilization and would be answerable to those laws. Galactica never had such a hope.
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Old March 5 2009, 03:18 AM   #153
Dane_Whitman
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

kimc wrote: View Post
Voyager on the other hand while a long way from home still had a home and a civilization to go back to. The belief was that someday they would get back to that civilization and would be answerable to those laws.
Indeed! I think this was also a factor in their decision to uphold much of Starfleet's regulations and procedure. Isn't it Alliances where Janeway asks Chakotay something along the line of "Do you propose we abandon our principals just because we're out of hailing range?"

Now, I'm kinda with GodBen and a lot of the others who call for a more loose interpretation of Starfleet rules and procedure. I would have loved it if the Voyager crew had become something of their own culture, differing from 'normal' Starfleet crews but still Starfleet. However, I would have liked to see that develop in the later seasons rather than around the time of Learning Curve, when the ship was lost for only what, seven months? I bet there are Starfleet ships on expeditions that are out of there more or less on their own for a lot longer than seven months. So Learning Curve would have been way too early for them to change radically.

As for Tuvok and the Bajoran earring, I always figured the guy was allowed to wear the thing after they'd made it through Tuvok's cadet training. He was just really hard on them to ensure a tight discipline.
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Old March 6 2009, 12:13 AM   #154
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This thread has made me want to watch some of these first season episodes again and last night I watched Ex Post Facto and Learning Curve. EPF was a great premise but just boring execution (And a dog), and I liked Learning Curve. It's not the best Tuvok episode, but there were some great moments.
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Old March 6 2009, 01:55 AM   #155
J47
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I quite enjoy "Learning Curve." The cheese subplot was ridiculous, but I like the "Lower Decks"-ish stuff with the Maquis in this episode.
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Old March 6 2009, 07:07 AM   #156
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

J47 wrote: View Post
I quite enjoy "Learning Curve." The cheese subplot was ridiculous, but I like the "Lower Decks"-ish stuff with the Maquis in this episode.

I found the cheese subplot funny as hell.
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Old March 6 2009, 07:10 PM   #157
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Season One Review

I wasn't kidding about the graphs.


I knocked this up in excel so that microsoft could tell me how I really felt about this season. 15 episodes (Caretaker is listed as one episode for the sake of this graph) and the 5 star ratings were multiplied by two in order to provide a score out of ten. I thought that seven episodes were above average (5 being the average), six episodes were below average and two episodes just sit there in the middle refusing to move.

The green line is the average score for the season which is 5.867; slightly above average. That's not bad for the first season of a show, particularly one that only has 15 episodes. When I did this for DS9's first season some years back it only managed 5.6, and TNG had a woefully bad 3.8.

However, the red line is a trend line the computer calculated for me and it suggests that my review scores were getting lower as the season went on. I never made a trend line for TNG or DS9, but I imagine they would have gone up due to episodes like Conspiracy or Duet. We'll see how it progresses in season two.


This is, of course, a bar chart which shows how many episode managed each score. The most popular score is clearly 8/10 (4 stars) which I gave to four episodes followed by 4/10 (2 stars) which I gave to three episodes. What I find interesting is that there seems to be a bell-curve around 4 with 8 being an obvious spike outside it.


The Braga Factor

I have been paying particular attention to Brannon Braga during my rewatching due to the controversy surrounding him. I like a lot of the stuff he did on TNG; Cause and Effect, Frame of Mind and Parallels are classics in my mind. I also like Generations and First Contact and some of the stuff he did on Enterprise, so my intention here is not to bash him but to try and determine his impact on Voyager. I am only going to pay attention to episodes where he was involved with the teleplay, story credits wont be counted as I believe a well-written script can overcome a bad story, and vice versa.

Parallax: 5/10
Phage: 8/10
Emanations: 3/10
Cathexis: 4/10

Average: 5/10

So the guy was average this season, but a little behind the season average. That actually fits in with what I was thinking before I did the math.


What would I have done differently?

Theoretically I am the show runner with the same premise and the same cast. How would the first season have gone? More Kazon and less aliens of the week. I said in my State of Flux review that I would have preferred it had there been some Kazon activity between Caretaker and that episode in order to justify Seska's defection. I also would have put State of Flux at the end of the season in order to end on a semi-cliffhanger to open up the possibilities of the second season.

There was a throwaway line in... I think it was Parallax, I could be mistaken, but the idea was that they were shutting down life support on certain decks in order to save energy. That would have been cool to see, but we never did. Holodecks are out, and so are replicators. They should have set up the pool table in the mess-hall and make it more like a game room rather than a dinner hall. We should have seen the hydroponics bay where Kes is apparently growing food, all it would take is some minor changes to sets and we could get a real sense of them being lost and in danger.

And it goes without saying that I would have more serialisation and I wouldn't have ended the Maquis integration problems by season's end. I also wouldn't have had the Maquis wearing uniforms so that casual viewers would be able to see that there is something different about them, like they could with Kira and Odo on DS9. Sometimes it feels like even the writers forgot about the character's backgrounds.


In Summation

A strong start, especially compared to DS9 and TNG, but not quite what I was hoping for. I'm willing to continue with the saga, but I'm not exactly enthralled by it.
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Old March 6 2009, 07:31 PM   #158
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Great read, GodBen. I generally agree with you, but I wanted to point out that I found the first season visually a bit stale. The SFX, the cinematography, the direction... very minimalistic. I'm glad VOY got a bit more dynamic and willing to experiment along the way.
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Old March 6 2009, 11:06 PM   #159
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Wonderful summation, GodBen, and thanks for the graphs.

I must say I'm a bit surprised that the ratings came out as well as they did, because for the most part Season One always felt like TNG Season 8 to me, in a bad way.

GodBen wrote: View Post
What would I have done differently?

Theoretically I am the show runner with the same premise and the same cast. How would the first season have gone? More Kazon and less aliens of the week. I said in my State of Flux review that I would have preferred it had there been some Kazon activity between Caretaker and that episode in order to justify Seska's defection. I also would have put State of Flux at the end of the season in order to end on a semi-cliffhanger to open up the possibilities of the second season.

There was a throwaway line in... I think it was Parallax, I could be mistaken, but the idea was that they were shutting down life support on certain decks in order to save energy. That would have been cool to see, but we never did. Holodecks are out, and so are replicators. They should have set up the pool table in the mess-hall and make it more like a game room rather than a dinner hall. We should have seen the hydroponics bay where Kes is apparently growing food, all it would take is some minor changes to sets and we could get a real sense of them being lost and in danger.

And it goes without saying that I would have more serialization and I wouldn't have ended the Maquis integration problems by season's end. I also wouldn't have had the Maquis wearing uniforms so that casual viewers would be able to see that there is something different about them, like they could with Kira and Odo on DS9. Sometimes it feels like even the writers forgot about the character's backgrounds.
I think when you said 'more Kazons' you meant 'Vidiians.'

I do understand why though, and feel both should have been used more. Generally though, I agree and had to quote and reemphasize these statements.

In Summation
A strong start, especially compared to DS9 and TNG, but not quite what I was hoping for. I'm willing to continue with the saga, but I'm not exactly enthralled by it.
Yay! If you quit, I wouldn't get to be scared by how much we agree anymore. Plus, you're saving me from doing all this, even though I guess I don't qualify as a hater.
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Old March 6 2009, 11:27 PM   #160
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
I think when you said 'more Kazons' you meant 'Vidiians.'
Oh yes, definitely more Vidiians too! I forgot about those guys when writing the recap. They were probably the most promising aliens Voyager met on the journey, I would have liked to see more of them. But I would also have liked to see more Kazon, only make them less Klingon and less stupid. (Oxymoron?)

Yay! If you quit, I wouldn't get to be scared by how much we agree anymore. Plus, you're saving me from doing all this, even though I guess I don't qualify as a hater.
According to that other thread I don't qualify either. I'm really upset about the whole thing, my whole thread has been a lie.
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Old March 6 2009, 11:30 PM   #161
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
I think when you said 'more Kazons' you meant 'Vidiians.'
Oh yes, definitely more Vidiians too! I forgot about those guys. They were probably the most promising aliens Voyager met on the journey, I would have liked to see more of them. But I would also have liked to see more Kazon, only make them less Klingon and less stupid. (Oxymoron?)
Not at all. Some would say less Klingon and less stupid go hand in hand.

I think the real mistake with the Kazon was trying to pretend they were anything but a thinly disguised desire to have a Delta Quadrant equivalent of Klingons. Had the producers operated aware of the fact they were copying themselves, we might have had a more unique and therefore interesting race.

Yay! If you quit, I wouldn't get to be scared by how much we agree anymore. Plus, you're saving me from doing all this, even though I guess I don't qualify as a hater.
According to that thread I don't either. I'm really upset about the whole thing, my whole thread has been a lie.
It's okay, I'll still call you a hater if you want, hater. Why you got to be such a hater all the time, hater?
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Old March 6 2009, 11:43 PM   #162
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
It's okay, I'll still call you a hater if you want, hater. Why you got to be such a hater all the time, hater?
A Voyager producer killed my entire family in a big explosion. But maybe I'm not angry at him, maybe I'm really angry at myself for being a coward and I should forgive him?

Hang on, that's ridiculous.

Anyway, that's the real reason why I hate Voyager.

(Yes, I have been drinking.)
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Old March 6 2009, 11:46 PM   #163
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You did see that I agree to call you a hater if you really want me to, right? I don't want to kill your dream.
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Old March 6 2009, 11:56 PM   #164
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
It's okay, I'll still call you a hater if you want, hater. Why you got to be such a hater all the time, hater?
A Voyager producer killed my entire family in a big explosion. But maybe I'm not angry at him, maybe I'm really angry at myself for being a coward and I should forgive him?

Hang on, that's ridiculous.

Anyway, that's the real reason why I hate Voyager.

(Yes, I have been drinking.)
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Old March 7 2009, 12:40 AM   #165
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JustKate wrote: View Post
You did see that I agree to call you a hater if you really want me to, right? I don't want to kill your dream.
Then my family didn't die in vain. Huzzah!
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