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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

View Poll Results: "Harbinger" is:
My guilty pleasure. 17 34.00%
A joke! 2 4.00%
A solid character-driven hour of Star Trek 21 42.00%
One of Trek's lowpoints 9 18.00%
I honestly could not care less! 6 12.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 9 2009, 04:28 PM   #16
Middleman
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Penguin wrote: View Post
He did say "My People will prevail after the Xindi destroy Earth". He didn't look at all like the sphere builders in other episodes.
That was because unlike the other sphere builders this one was suffering the ill effects of being in our universe leading to the appearance. It was meant to show him disintegrating in our realm.
Good point. If you take away his skin texture, he looked exactly like the others. They made his skin look sort of like "The Thing" from fantastic Four.
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Old February 10 2009, 11:27 PM   #17
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

The episode had a lot of misplaced priorities story-wise. The sphere-builder plot should have been the main focus of this episode. Here this is, the big pivotal point of the whole season, and instead most people how stupid the other two plots were.

Reed's anger comes out of seemingly nowhere. The only time we'd seen him interact with Hayes was in "the Shipment," and rarely heard him mention anything about the MACOs at all. (Reed, I'd argue, got even more jipped in character development than even Hoshi, but I'll save that argument for another thread.)

The Trip/T'Pol stuff was just stupid. I would think that Trellium or not, T'Pol's jealousy would be a little less obvious. And to be honest, it did a lot to kill my like for the two as a couple.

Easily the season's low point.
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Old February 12 2009, 01:34 PM   #18
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
The only worthwhile element was the Sphere Builder plot and gave that wonderfully ominous ending. The visuals of the anomaly, the design of the alien pod and the revelation from T'Pol about the planet being consumed by a sphere foreshadowing the ultimate goal of the sphere network were great.

Unfortunately, it only was a small part of the hour. The rest of the stuff was pretty bad. Reed barely ever got any focus as a person and we finally get something here and it made him look like an annoying unprofessional baby made even worse by the fact that the crew was in the middle of grave mission to save Earth. Archer's dressing down of the two was dead-on and the only good thing about this plot.

I was never a fan of Trip/T'Pol. I never felt they had chemistry. Instead of examining their relationship in a more mature manner it went off the deep end.
I thought this was a great analysis. Although I'm harder on it and think either -- it's a joke -- or a terrible episode.
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Old February 12 2009, 02:54 PM   #19
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )
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Last edited by Mach5; February 12 2009 at 05:57 PM.
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Old February 12 2009, 03:16 PM   #20
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

T'Pol's bum. 'nuff said for me.
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Old February 12 2009, 06:13 PM   #21
commodore64
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )
I think you're assuming that my A/T'P-ism places rose-colored glasses on me. I disagree. Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh. I think, overall, I care more about good character development and plot than a relationship. (You might argue that ANIS made Archer look like a dork, but I would say -- yes it did, and that was the very point. Then again, I like the character.)

I think it's interesting, though, I merely had to quote someone else. Maybe I'm not alone in my thinking?
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Old February 12 2009, 06:15 PM   #22
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )
This business of making sarcastic comments about a poster and then claiming "Just kidding! " has outworn its welcome, Mach5. I'm not in the mood for it anymore. You've already racked up one warning today. Don't make it two. Knock this crap off.
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Old February 12 2009, 06:52 PM   #23
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

commodore64 wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
^ Hmm,
hates Harbinger...
* Hates Bound...
** Loves ANIS...
*** There's a pattern in there somewhere... Quick, someone call Fox Mulder!

(BTW, before I get banned, I should point out that this is me kidding, not an attempt in malicious sarcasm )
I think you're assuming that my A/T'P-ism places rose-colored glasses on me. I disagree. Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh. I think, overall, I care more about good character development and plot than a relationship. (You might argue that ANIS made Archer look like a dork, but I would say -- yes it did, and that was the very point. Then again, I like the character.)

I think it's interesting, though, I merely had to quote someone else. Maybe I'm not alone in my thinking?
I doubt you are, and I'm actually very satisfied with this answer. I may not agree with your views, but at least you explain them in a careful and interesting way.
But I am puzzled... You are the Archer fan, are you not? Didn't you like the way he demonstrated his authority with Reed and Hayes?
Because my reaction to his shouting was something like: "Go, Captain!"
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Old February 12 2009, 09:16 PM   #24
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

Thanks. Am I *the* Archer fan? I don't think I'm alone in liking the character. I just think more people who like Trip are attracted to this board.

As to the question about liking his dressing down -- you know, I didn't mostly because I think it was over the top like the rest of the episode. I know this will sound strange, but I love the Reed portion of the Klingon forehead episodes and yet, hate when Archer gets in his face and screams at him. I didn't think it was very Archer-like. Archer, to me, seems like a guy who mostly feels uncomfortable being the military commander ... which is what to me season 3 was a lot about. I think when he has to step into this role, it's a bit like a duck out of water. I think what may have worked better in both instances is quiet and sarcastic anger, like the kind he displays in Damage to T'Pol after she shatters the hand-held computer. Besides thinking Archer is the kind to go quietly angry, I always think less is more ... which is why I think the Trip crying scene in The Forgotten is silly.

I thought Archer's outrage in ANIS worked because it *was* over the top .... And that was the point. Archer was too proud and needed to take everything down a few notches.
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Old February 12 2009, 09:30 PM   #25
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

Am I *the* Archer fan? I don't think I'm alone in liking the character.
I kinda like him too. Not all the time, but most of the time (but I still think he should have been better written).

I just think more people who like Trip are attracted to this board.
Can't an ENT fan like both of them? I do (I like Trip a lot more though)

... which is why I think the Trip crying scene in The Forgotten is silly.
But... But... He finally dealt with the death of his baby sister there... Have a little hart, Commie!

Okay, back to Harbinger.

Archer, to me, seems like a guy who mostly feels uncomfortable being the military commander ... which is what to me season 3 was a lot about.
I agree about Archer being an explorer, not a soldier, but I think the Expanse-related stress was getting to him. He was literally carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and needed an outlet, because he was breaking down inside. And the soldier boy duo was a perfect target, they were practically begging for it, behaving like idiots and all.
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Old February 13 2009, 05:15 AM   #26
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

I kinda like him too. Not all the time, but most of the time (but I still think he should have been better written).
We reach. I feel the same way about Trip. I like the guy, but dislike some of the things he did in season 3 and 4.

Can't an ENT fan like both of them? I do (I like Trip a lot more though)
I absolutely think so. ENT is one of the few Star Treks that I like all the characters. Trip is probably my least favorite, but I still like him. I assume most people who post to the ENT forum have to at least tolerate all the characters or else they wouldn't probably bother to post.

But... But... He finally dealt with the death of his baby sister there... Have a little hart, Commie!
I have a big heart, despite what some may say. It's the cholesterol. Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently. I think restrained emotion is always the most beautiful. I would've felt sorrier for Trip if he hung his head and whispered, "She was my sister, T'Pol." Seeing him weep didn't really move me.

You know, maybe this is one of the reasons I like Archer better and may explain why I like characters. (See, you really got me thinking.) I really like characters who have restrained emotion -- Spock, Avon, Archer .... I like knowing characters are in turmoil; they don't have to continue to tell me.

I agree about Archer being an explorer, not a soldier, but I think the Expanse-related stress was getting to him. He was literally carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and needed an outlet, because he was breaking down inside. And the soldier boy duo was a perfect target, they were practically begging for it, behaving like idiots and all.
I agree they were acting like idiots, but ... so was he. And Phlox. And .... Everyone took their emotions to the power of 10. I think what may've been better to see is if Archer came across as a cool customer and gave them something like KP duty (scrubbing latrines, peeling potatoes, etc.). One of the best moments of TOS is when Scotty starts a fight to protect the honor of the NCC Enterprise (instead of his captain). Kirk crosses many of his crew to determine what happened and punishes Scotty, but does so with a sense of panache. Kirk means business (he's not yelling), but for a moment we see whimsy in his eye as he doles out the punishment. Better still, Scotty gets excited about being confined to quarters b/c he gets to catch up on his technical reading.

See the difference?
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Old February 15 2009, 12:10 AM   #27
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

[quote=commodore64;2607235]
Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently.
A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?
Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh.
So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?
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Old February 15 2009, 12:10 AM   #28
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

commodore64 wrote: View Post
Seriously, I think I would've had more sympathy for Trip if they didn't mention his sister every episode and he didn't mope about it so frequently.
A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?
Sure, I like A/T'P, but I didn't like Carpenter Street and am not crazy about The Seventh.
So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years (and I can't, unfortunately) I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?
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Old February 15 2009, 02:49 AM   #29
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

A couple of things, haven't you posted many times here in the past that there was hardly any mention of Elizabeth's death in episodes prior to The Forgotten (and after The Expanse) and that there was little to no showing of Trip's feelings about Eiizabeth's death prior to The Forgotten? Did something change or am I misremembering this?
Misremembering. My complaint about The Expanse is that we didn't meet Elizabeth and that it would've been more impactful if we had. For example, we'd met Reed's sister. I then said although we'd seen her once (in Trip's dream), he constantly mentioned her.

So, if I could search back through the BBS archives over the last 4-5 years I wouldn't find one post of yours which expressed your unabashed love for The Seventh?
Be my guest. I know I've taken some heat on Logical Choice for not being in love with The Seventh, and I can't think of many A/T'P fans that like Carpenter Street. I remember when it came out, we were all incredibly disappointed.

I will say this -- a quote from a friend of mine. I'm consistent in my inconsistency. I may have defended Seventh or Carpenter Street, but I still am not crazy about them.

Back to Harbinger .... < I feel the mods being lenient, but probably on the verge of reminding me what the thread is about.
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Old February 16 2009, 04:06 AM   #30
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Re: "Harbinger" - really that bad?

no
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