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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old February 18 2009, 07:09 PM   #16
LCARS 24
Commodore
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

SicOne wrote: View Post
That explanation sounded good to me.

Not as acrimonious as the 120m vs 170m Defiant arguments used to be, but...

Did you change the Ambassador MSD to fit, LCARS 24?
The deck layout is still okay with those dimensions. I just have to downsize the shuttles a tad, keeping in mind 2.8 meters in height for the class 8. That's easy enough.

At the moment I'm torturing over the layout and details of a Peregrine MSD, with a not a lot out there to go on other than exterior clues.
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Old February 19 2009, 08:06 AM   #17
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

I do not envy you that task, my friend. There's almost no information on that class at all to go on.
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Old February 21 2009, 02:43 AM   #18
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Regarding the Nebula, how did you arrive at 444m long x 464m wide x 133m draft, and 4.7 million tons? Starship Spotter gives 465m long x 467.1m wide x 140.5m draft, and 3.309 million tons. Ex Astris gives 440m long for the triangular pod-version, and 465m for the AWACS pod-version. I have seen statistics giving a 318m width for the Nebula, but that's incompatible with a Galaxy saucer.
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Old February 21 2009, 12:01 PM   #19
LCARS 24
Commodore
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

The dimensions for the Nebula are based on its having the same saucer width as the Galaxy class and taking measurements from that there. The Peregrine about done and has its own thread here in Trek Tech.
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Old February 21 2009, 05:38 PM   #20
JNG
Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

If the density of a Nebula-class ship was the same as that of a Galaxy-class ship, then her mass would be a little over 3,800,000 tons. I think she is slightly more dense than that, and suggest 4,000,000 metric tons as my favorite kind of nice and round number: the justifiable kind.

That's working off 5,000,000 tons for the Galaxy, which I believe Andrew Probert intended and shows up on the Ed Whitefire blueprints and so forth. If anyone wants to work to justify the 4.5 million figure in DS9 TM (as if its other mass figures weren't goofy enough to remove all temptation to do so), there's a paragraph right above it about launching Galaxy-class ships with lots of their interior volume empty that works great.
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Old February 21 2009, 07:08 PM   #21
LCARS 24
Commodore
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Right. I'd better change my mass figures for the Galaxy class (make it 4,960,000) and Nebula (make it 4,047,000).
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Old February 22 2009, 01:25 AM   #22
DSG2k
Commander
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Gotta point out here that the mass stated in "Mudd's Women" for a TOS Constitution is "almost a million gross tons". The 190,000 tonne figure is non-canon and non-sensical. If the ship were 190,000 tonnes then it would be 25% less dense than an Apollo capsule or the later USS Voyager (the two being equal is not a coincidence, BTW). It would also be 90% as dense as water.

We know that starships of the 23rd and 24th Century are generally more dense than water. Voyager, which we would expect to be as light as possible, had a density 20% greater than that of water, based on canon statements of mass and observable dimensions. Vessels seen to crash in water (Jem'Hadar or Klingon) have all been seen to sink (though the KBoP was in the shallow waters of the SF Bay (average depth 14 feet)).

I personally conclude that if the Constitution could have been 900,000 gross tons, give or take, resulting in a mass of some 915,000 metric tonnes. However, you could swing the gross tonnage about 100k either way to your liking.
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Old February 22 2009, 07:18 AM   #23
JNG
Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

^

Yeah, we just had a thread about this.

I don't see a big problem with a floating 1701, myself, and would expect Voyager to be a bit more dense than 1701, but not wayyyyy less dense. Voyager is the only one we know for sure is more dense than water; Enterprise-D isn't (around .86 by your volume numbers). 1701 at a million tons would be the outlier, so I can't view 190,000 tons as nonsensical. The "gross tons" thing is a bit odd and a number of non-canon sources support the 190,000 ton figure, so it works for stuff like this.
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Old February 22 2009, 12:42 PM   #24
DSG2k
Commander
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

I have replied in the thread you referred to, and will take your post and my reply to that thread, as well. Didn't see it on the second page and haven't been here in awhile, sorry.
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Old March 17 2009, 08:27 AM   #25
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Anyone have a good overhead picture or ortho of the AWACS-type pod on the Nebula? Trying to get a fix on how big that pod is.

Also, it's my understanding the nacelles on the Enterprise-E were moved around for "Nemesis" and that the ship is actually a bit shorter now; is that true? Anyone have the revised length/width/height for the "new" E?

Well, I guess width wouldn't really change...
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Old March 17 2009, 04:12 PM   #26
JNG
Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

SicOne wrote: View Post
Also, it's my understanding the nacelles on the Enterprise-E were moved around for "Nemesis" and that the ship is actually a bit shorter now; is that true? Anyone have the revised length/width/height for the "new" E?

Well, I guess width wouldn't really change...
I got:

Length, 673.3 meters; beam, 250.6 meters; height, 89.35 meters.

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Old March 18 2009, 06:05 AM   #27
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Thanks, JNG. Since asking the question, I have seen a link to an article on the Sov redesign for "Nemesis", but there was mention that the nacelles were moved upwards as well some eight meters, making the ship now some 96 meters tall now? Seems a bit excessive. Any thoughts?
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Old March 18 2009, 07:21 AM   #28
LCARS 24
Commodore
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

Also, a correction for the Type 9 shuttlecraft: 8.5 x 4.5 x 2.34. And for the Starfleet Command staff shuttle (seen in VOY: Endgame), it's 9.5 x 5.14 x 2.36.
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Old March 18 2009, 07:43 AM   #29
JNG
Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command
 
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

SicOne wrote: View Post
Thanks, JNG. Since asking the question, I have seen a link to an article on the Sov redesign for "Nemesis", but there was mention that the nacelles were moved upwards as well some eight meters, making the ship now some 96 meters tall now? Seems a bit excessive. Any thoughts?
Can I read the link? The comparison sketches I looked at showed that the nacelles were moved up only very slightly (slightly enough that the whole thing seems faintly ridiculous in aesthetic terms, but hey, in-universe it must have been important for reasons involving warp stresses or something); I don't think the changes look that radical on the ship in the movie, but it is hard to say for certain.

EDIT: I think the 8m comes from comparing the drawings on the same set of sketches floating around, but those actually specify 1.3% height increase in writing. The question would then be whether this meant 1.3% of the height, as you would think and as the numbers I posted above assume, or if for some ungodly reason this would mean the nacelle height was increased by 1.3% of the overall length of the ship (the only way I can think to interpret it to get anything close to 8 meters, though it'd be more like 9). Because that seems kinda silly and the nacelle height increase is not really noticeable anyway, I personally take the 1.3% as a height percentage and just assume the sketches are not drawn to scale because the difference would have been visually insignificant at the size of the drawing. That would result in the height I listed above.

Anyone have any screenshots from Nemesis that really make it look as if the nacelles were jacked up more than that?

Last edited by JNG; March 18 2009 at 07:56 AM.
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Old March 18 2009, 08:39 AM   #30
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Vessel dimensions & masses

To add to what LCARS 24 posted at the beginning of this thread are some figures, and their published sources, all dimensions in meters. I am not attempting to evaluate their respective qualifications or differences, just merely post the figures from the books for discussion.

My apologies if posting information from published sources is considered faux pas or forbidden by BBS rules. I am trying to be all-inclusive to multiple sources so we can nail this down. Mods, if so, feel free to pull the post and advise me accordingly; don't want to run afoul of the rules.

"Ships Of The Star Fleet:Volume One Revised", July 1991

Constitution-class (original)...285.9 overall length x 125.6 overall width x 71.5 overall height; primary hull (saucer) 126.8 long x 125.6 wide x 32.8 high; nacelles 153.8 long x 19.2 wide x 18.8 high. 181,000 tons.

Constitution-class (refit)...304.8 overall length x 141.7 overall width x 71.3 overall height; primary hull 146.3 long x 141.7 wide x 32.9 high; nacelles 154.8 long x 12.6 wide x 18.3 high. 210,000 tons.

NOTE:Constitution-class (refit) for NCC-1701-A is same as regular Con-refit, but nacelles are 155.0 x 13.5 wide x 18.3 high, and 211,500 tons.

Avenger-class (Miranda-class)...234.9 overall length x 141.2 overall width x 58.8 overall height; primary hull 178.3 long x 141.2 wide x 32.5 high; nacelles 154.8 long x 12.6 wide x 17.8 high. 150,000 tons.

old black Franz Joseph "Starfleet Technical Manual", 1975

Constitution-class (original)...288.6 overall length x 127.1 overall width x 72.6 overall height; primary hull 127.1 diameter; secondary hull 103.6 long x 34.1 diameter; nacelles 153.6 long x 17.3 diameter. 190,000 tons.

"Deep Space Nine Technical Manual", November 1998

Deep Space Nine...1451.82 overall diameter x 969.26 overall height; Habitat Ring 579.12 diameter; Core 285.90 diameter (maximum)/59.43 diameter at Ops; Weapon Sail Towers 192.02 high. Could not find weight.

Following figures are length, width, height, followed by tonnage.

Danube-class...23.1 x 13.7 x 5.4. 158.7 tons.
Galaxy-class...642.51 x 463.73 x 195.26. 4,500,000 tons.
Nebula-class...442.23 x 318.11 x 130.43. 3,309,000 tons.
Excelsior-class...511.25 x 195.64 x 86.76. 2,350,000 tons.
Defiant-class...170.68 x 134.1 x 30.1. 355,000 tons.
Akira-class...464.43 x 316.67 x 87.43. 3,055,000 tons.
Miranda-class...277.76 x 173.98 x 65.23. 655,000 tons.
Norway-class...364.77 x 225.61 x 52.48. 622,000 tons.

Saber-class...stats are the same as Norway-class, obviously an error. Following the Saber-class were a number of kitbashed ships, but I am trying to stay with known ship classes.

Vor'Cha-class...481.32 x 341.76 x 106.87. 2,238,000 tons.
Negh'Var-class...682.32 x 470.09 x 136.65. 4,310,000 tons.
B'Rel-class...157.76 x 181.54 x 98.54. 236,000 tons.
K'T'inga-class...349.54 x 251.76 x 98.41. 760,000 tons.

Keldon-class...371.88 x 192.23 x 70.13. 2,230,000 tons.
Galor-class...371.88 x 192.23 x 59.00. 1,678,000 tons.
Hideki-class...85.78 x 60.14 x 12.43. 120,000 tons.

Jem'Hadar battle cruiser...639.75 x 568.44 x 204.97. 4,215,000 tons.
Jem'Hadar attack ship...68.32 x 70.02 x 18.32. 2,450 tons.

D'Deridex-class...1,041.65 x 772.43 x 285.47. 4,320,000 tons.

"Starship Spotter", November 2001. Figures are length, width, height, followed by tonnage.

Constitution-class (original)...288.6 x 127.1 x 72.6. 190,000 tons.
Constitution-class (refit)...304.8 x 141.7 x 71.3. 210,000 tons.
Miranda-class...237.6 x 141.7 x 58.0. 150,000 tons.
Nebula-class...465.0 x 467.1 x 140.5. 3,309,000 tons.
Galaxy-class...641.0 x 467.1 x 137.5. 4,500,000 tons.
Danube-class...23.1 x 13.7 x 5.4. 158.7 tons.
Nova-class...165.0 x 81.2 x 31.4. 110,000 tons.
Akira-class...464.4 x 316.7 x 87.4. 3,055,000 tons.
Defiant-class...119.5 x 90.3 x 25.5. 355,000 tons.
Sovereign-class...685.3 x 250.6 x 88.2. 3,205,000 tons.
Intrepid-class...344.5 x 132.1 x 64.4. 700,000 tons.
Prometheus-class...415.0 x 170.0 x 113.0. 850,000 tons.
SpaceDock (ST:TSFS)...4,600 diameter x 6,900 tall. 236,642,306 tons.

K'T'inga-class...214.3 x 152.4 x 57.3. 120,000 tons.
B'Rel-class...88.0 x 130.0 x 21.7. 46,300 tons.
Vor'Cha-class...481.3 x 341.8 x 106.9. 2,238,000 tons.
Romulan Bird-of-Prey (TOS)...68.2 x 90.6 x 21.9. 25,000 tons.
D'Deridex-class...1,041.7 x 772.4 x 285.5. 4,320,000 tons.
Galor-class...229.5 x 118.7 x 38.1. 412,930 tons.
Jem'Hadar attack ship...68.3 x 70.02 x 18.3. 2,450 tons.

Listed below, by way of comparison, are lengths given by the excellent website Ex Astris Scientia. Please see that website for various discussions regarding ship sizes.

Akira-class...440
Ambassador-class...526
Centaur-type...381
Challenger-class...390
Cheyenne-class...362
Constellation-class...310
Constitution-class (original)...289
Constitution-class (refit)...305
Daedalus-class...105
Danube-class...23
Defiant-class...120
Excelsior-class...467
Excelsior-class (Enterprise-B)...469
Freedom-class...430
Galaxy-class...642.5
Intrepid-class...344
Miranda-class...243
Nebula-class (triangular pod)...440
Nebula-class (AWACS-type pod)...465
New Orleans-class...340
Niagara-class...480
Norway-class...355
Nova-class...180
NX-class...225
Oberth-class...150
Olympic-class...320
Prometheus-class...415
Raven-type...90
Saber-class...172
Sovereign-class...685
Sovereign-class (for "Nemesis)...673
Steamrunner-class...355
Sydney-class...235
Yeager-type...330

Delta Flyer...21
Intrepid-class aeroshuttle...27
Argo shuttle...20
Enterprise-E shuttle...16
Federation scout ship...24
Sovereign-class Captain's Yacht...33.5

Borg Cube...3,040
Borg Sphere...450 some, 600 others
Breen destroyer...330
Galor-class...481
Keldon-class...481
Hideki-class...98
Ferengi Marauder...366
Jem'Hadar attack ship...95
Jem'Hadar battle cruiser...650
B'Rel-class...110
K'T'inga-class...214
Vor'Cha-class...481
Negh'Var-class...682 no spike, 718 with spike
Romulan Bird-of-Prey (TOS)...131
D'Deridex-class...1,200
Romulan science ship...95
Romulan scout ship...89
Valdore-type (Norexan-class?)...604
Scimitar...890

Other items from Ex Astris Scientia...

Deep Space Nine...1,097 diameter intended, 1,451 compromised...note that a 120-meter Defiant fits well with the smaller diameter, while a 170m Defiant fits well with the larger diameter.

SpaceDock (ST3)...3,800 diameter x 5,500 tall.

If anyone else knows of other websites that have solid (or well-reasoned) explanations of ship dimensions, feel free to contribute here.
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