Of Crossovers and Fictional Universes

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Daneel wrote:

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Eh, if any particular crossover is extremely difficult to reconcile with other established facts in either of the shows, movies, comics, etc., you can probably brush it off with the old multiple universes theory. That is, you might see a character that is familiar to you, like John Munch showing up on The X-Files, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily the same John Munch that you've seen from the universe of Homicide and Law and Order; he's a John Munch from an alternate universe, who just happens to also be a Baltimore cop.

Agreed. We know Law & Order and Homicide share a universe, because they had *regular* crossovers. But this shared universe does not crossover with X-Files just because John Munch is in both.

In fact, we *know* that there is no such crossover, since in an early Homicide episode ("Partners"), Munch says something about "on Friday nights, most people are at home watching X-Files".

And don't even get me started on any of this Tommy Westphall crap.

[wamdue]

auntiehill wrote:

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[I still think it is very strange indeed that Dexter, Burn Notice and CSI: Miami all "exist" in the same town without running into each other. That cries out for a crossover, damn it.

I have been thinking about Dexter & CSI Miami, but in an episode of CSI NY you see a billboard advertising Dexter, so that makes it clear Dexter is a TV show in the CSI verse.

Still Dexter vs Horatio would be alot of fun

[Gojirob]

I'll start on it for all of five seconds. That xover list includes Superman's appearance on 'I Love Lucy' as a connector. Problem : Superman never appeared on ILL - George Reeves did. He was never credited as himself to avoid disappointing the kids, but Ricky and Lucy met him during their stay in Hollywood. You don't meet Superman in Hollywood. If the show had even half-joked that they met him 'while passing through Metropolis', an argument could be made. Also, at no time does GR do anything a mortal man couldn't do.

Sorry, that one is a pet peeve.

[Extrocomp]

Daneel wrote:

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Oh, okay. Personally, I'd consider that more of an inside-joke that was not meant to be taken seriously by the showrunners. So I still think don't there's any major problems in the notion that they take place in the same universe.

In the Millennium episode 'Somehow Satan Got Behind Me' shows a studio filming The X-Files, before they are interrupted by a censor who goes insane, starts rambling about how everything is unacceptable before shooting a bunch or people and then himself. The X-Files is never mentioned by name and Mulder and Scully are not played by the real actors and the theme music isn't quite right but supposedly it's obvious that it's an X-Files parody.

I haven't actually seen this episode, I just read the transcript. Does this contradict the idea that The X-Files and Millennium are in the same universe? What do you guys think?

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Agreed. We know Law & Order and Homicide share a universe, because they had *regular* crossovers. But this shared universe does not crossover with X-Files just because John Munch is in both.

Precisely. The reason I started this thread is to try to define exactly what "regular crossovers" means. How many crossovers does it have to be? Two? Three? The X-Files and Millennium have two crossovers if you count Jose Chung's one-time appearance in both series as one crossover.

Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street have 3 crossovers: a 90-minute movie, the novelization of that movie and a comic that also crosses over with Army of Darkness. Comics don't count because they frequently have implausible crossovers (there are 9 different comic crossovers between DC Universe and Aliens/Predator universe). Novelizations perhaps don't count because they have the same story as the movie they're based on. Then again, novelizations sometimes have differences due to script changes, so perhaps they should be counted. Alternatively, perhaps the movie Freddy vs Jason should be counted as two crossovers because it is twice as long as a TV episode.

And then there's Who Framed Roger Rabbit, which is a massive crossover between Disney animated characters Looney Tunes characters, Betty Boop and several others.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, which exists as a TV show in its own universe! And it's not just a brief gag like in Doctor Who. There are several episodes based entirely around this concept.

[Harvey]

Since its a meta-textual parody of the X-Files, and not the actual show, I don't have a problem with it. After all, The X-Files had it's own version of the same joke, with Hollywood, A.D.

[The Borgified Corpse]

wamdue wrote:

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anyways in "Rememberance of the Daleks"

(quoting from wikipedia, but its true)

Oh yeah. I've seen "Rememberance of the Daleks." Now I remember that. That was cool.

Gojirob wrote:

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Also, at no time does GR do anything a mortal man couldn't do.

True. But that bit where he jumps through the window of Lucy & Ricky's kitchen into the living room is pretty cool.

[wamdue]

someone wrote:

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I'm surprised no one's mentioned Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, which exists as a TV show in its own universe! And it's not just a brief gag like in Doctor Who. There are several episodes based entirely around this concept.

I think I know the one you mean, where we see Herc as a studio exec? and all other actors in the show also have jobs?

[Gojirob]

The Borgified Corpse wrote:

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Oh yeah. I've seen "Rememberance of the Daleks." Now I remember that. That was cool.

True. But that bit where he jumps through the window of Lucy & Ricky's kitchen into the living room is pretty cool.

QFT. Don't get me wrong, its among my fave eps of one of my fave shows, featuring my fave Superman. If they ever make a Hallmark ornament of some sort out of one of its scenes, count me there. But to use a convention meant to protect 50's kiddies' fantasies to somehow argue that Kal-L Superman exists in Lucy's world is weaker than some talk radio I've heard, and that's saying something. Its nice fic fodder, but that's about it.

Heh. Speaking of fic fodder, imagine a series of eps wherein the Ricardos and Mertzes go to Japan so Ricky can tour for the USO. While there, odd rumblings are heard in Tokyo Bay...

Lucy : Eewwwwhhh!

Ricky : Ai-yai-yai-yai-YAIIIIIII!!!

Lucy : ohhhh, RICKY! He stepped on Fred + Ethel!!!

Ricky : Well, its about time.

[Daneel]

wamdue wrote:

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I think I know the one you mean, where we see Herc as a studio exec? and all other actors in the show also have jobs?

I remember those episodes (there were a couple of them, I think). Basically, they suggested that the actor Kevin Sorbo was actually the real Hercules (I guess he inherited his father's immortality) and that he was starring on a TV series (presumably, the same one we were watching) based on his adventures from thousands of years earlier. Other recurring actors on the show played exaggerated versions of the real-life writers and producers.

It was somewhat amusing, but it seemed like the writers thought of it as more of gag than as a crucial part of the show's mythology, especially since it presented the audience with facts that were later contradicted in the series' "regular" episodes (i.e. mentioning or showing certain god characters that shouldn't exist in the present day because they were killed off in later episodes).

Either way, it doesn't really have anything to do with a crossover, but I guess it does add to the meta-universe idea. This show, and Xena, often had self-referential episodes that existed outside of the regular series narrative, but I think that was just the writers trying to have some experimental fun with the tongue-in-cheek nature of the show. I personally don't really regard most of them as part of the "canon", so to speak, but to each his own.

[IndyJones]

Gojirob wrote:

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It almost did happen. Sam was at one point supposed to leap into Magnum, PI, but legal issues killed it, and they wrote the Lee Harvey Oswald story instead.

I haven't seen an episode in years, but i remember really enjoying the Oswald arc.

Extrocomp wrote:

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P.S. Please don’t mention the Tommy Westphall universe. It’s an extremely ridiculous idea and I’m concerned that it will lead this discussion in the wrong direction. Besides, only the first season of St. Elsewhere has been released on DVD, and if a show doesn’t exist on DVD, it doesn’t exist.

I found a chart where a guy connected show from Tommy's mind. He directly connected Angel to the new Battlestar. It's a frakkin' disaster.

[Aquehonga]

Nardpuncher wrote:

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But what if he leapt into T'Pol or Mayweather or even Phlox?

I've always admired the David Kelly-verse. The way all DK's shows are in the same space/time continuum.

It'd be to have Quantum Leap back again too

QL's Series Finale being open-ended & all.

Be great to see Scott Bakula & Dean Spockwell reunited

Especially after DS's disappointing ENT visit

What if Doc Beckett leaped into Cap'n Archer's body?

[Star Wolf]

The Borgified Corpse wrote:

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And, IIRC, Picket Fences did a crossover episode with The X-Files, which would also set all of those David E. Kelly shows into a common universe with The Lone Gunmen, Millennium, Homicide, and Law & Order.

The story on the Picket Fences, X-Files crossover is up thread. I remember that night well. I was a Picket Fences fan and the cow episode made that show one of my all time favorites. It is on my list of best hour of television

On the X-Files Sculley and Muldar were in Wisconsin investigating some sort of cult with cows envovled. Then Picket Fences came on. The plot of using cows as surrogate mothers as the Christmas episode was as far out as anything they did. But then the regional FBI agent who had a reoccuring role because of the weird happenings in Rome was called in. And Carter the M.E. suggested asking in a couple of Special Agents who recently worked a case linked with cows somewhere else in the state and I spit out my tea.

Almost a crossover, but not

[Nardpuncher]

Oh yeah, I like to think that since Reginald ValJohnson (sp?) played a cop on both "Family Matters" and in "Die Hard" that maybe they were the same guy.
Imagine John McClane meeting Steve Erkel!

[Gojirob]

Mclane would just have Steve walk in and talk to the terrorists de jure. Either way, he wins.

BTW, something I just recalled. On a technical level, many of the heroes we regard as early DC actually came from different companies : National and All-American also had differing viewpoints on the war in Europe, prior to Pearl Harbor. So it is that one of the first true crossovers in comics resulted in the creation of the Justice Society!

[Deckerd]

Back to the OP, I think Sigourney Weaver summed up the idea of an Alien / Predator movie the best and most succinctly; "I think it's a horrible idea".

And she was right.