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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

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Old February 12 2009, 12:09 AM   #316
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

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Old February 12 2009, 12:52 AM   #317
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
The best parts were Adama and Roslin. Both of them were badasses in this episode.
"No...not now...not ever....I'm coming for all of you!!!"

Gave me chills...
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Old February 12 2009, 12:59 AM   #318
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj wrote: View Post
Last, the deceptive confusion between coup, revolution and civil war, aided by selectively ignoring the point (despite being repeated!) about the absurdity of starting with such a massacre
Ignored for good reason, because that's not what happened in the episode. Which you would know if you had seen it.

Granted he made only a token effort to be accepted as the new President before giving the order, but that effort and the other surrounding circumstances change the context of the event somewhat.
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Old February 12 2009, 01:09 AM   #319
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Lindley wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Last, the deceptive confusion between coup, revolution and civil war, aided by selectively ignoring the point (despite being repeated!) about the absurdity of starting with such a massacre
Ignored for good reason, because that's not what happened in the episode. Which you would know if you had seen it.
Don't be absurd. That would require that stj stop viewing every single thing related to politics ever created as being part of some vast anti-Leftist conspiracy. He couldn't pretend to be a victim if he did that.
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Old February 12 2009, 01:14 AM   #320
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post
Why don't you define "liberal" as leftist? It's true that the American "Left" is much more centrist than political parties of the Left in other countries, but if "liberal" is not analogous to the Left and "conservative" is not analogous to the Right, what's your frame of reference?
Socialist and Communist would be leftist. The insistence on falsifying descriptors like Left arises from the need to pretend there is a significant range of acceptable opinion in the US.

Comments about starting with such a massacre are irrelevant, since the coup/revolution (Gaeta and Zarek themselves disagree on what they have embarked upon) doesn't start with a massacre of any kind. There's a few isolated incidents of violence in the beginning, but no massacre. That happens later (eleven civilians are killed).
The French king's absolute monarchy was overthrown in 1789, while the Reign of Terror was organized in 1793, after fears of invasion and treason reached a peak in the seemingly imminent conquest of France. The Bolshevik Revolution occurred after the Tsar had thrown away millions of lives in its predatory war. Stalin's collectivization campaign didn't take place for another ten years and the Yezhoshchina was even later than that. I doubt the bloodshed after the triumph of the Cuban Revolution has never reached the levels of normal bloodshed by most Latin American governments. The Mexican government's massacres during the Olympics alone may have exceeded the death toll after the Cuban Revolution.

Despite the filthy prejudices of small and ignorant minds like [b]Starship Polaris'[/i], the blood shed by leftist coups and revolutions was never the immediate result of the crazy schemes' of doctrinaire ideologues. They were always developments from previous violence by others, fear of defeat by moral enemies or, in the case of Stalin's purges and the Cultural Revolution, faction fights unleashing forces beyond control.

Yet Zarek was portrayed as resorting to indiscriminate mass slaughter, unprovoked by threats, disdaining all alternatives, the moment he had a chance. Of course it matters who starts that kind of violence. I don't think you honestly believe it doesn't. Nor do I see how you can imagine the mere passage of a few hours or days makes a difference.

Speaking of the so-called "deceptive" confusion between civil war, revolution, and coup d'etat, what definitions are you using? Tell me why my post is stupid, not that it is stupid.
A coup d'etat would be expected to be attended by minor violence. A massacre like Zarek's would be a red flag for a specially heinous regime.

More violence, after other violence, horrible as it still is, is also the way the world has worked for far too long. Leftwing violence after such simply isn't remarkable. On the other hand, the El Salvadoran massacres of the Thirties, the Betancourt's massacres in Venezuela in the Forties, the Dirty War in Argentina, the AUC death squads in Colombia, Pinochet's massacres in Chile, the junta's slaughters in Brazil, the massacre of the Communards, Suharto's massacres in Indonesia, Chiang Kai-Shek's massacres of Communists in Shanghai and Nanjing, the massacre of the Viennese workers in 1937, the White Terror under the Directory in France---trying to equate the routine murder of as many "enemies" as possible, the right wing's favorite tactic, to the violence of leftists? It can only be called stupid (an act of kindness) or called despicable. Young people might have heads still stuffed full of nonsense, but alleged grownups should know enough not to believe the Ronald Reagan version of history.

No doubt many or most you think this is all just taking out the trash. In addition to ignoring the huge numbers of right wing murders (hundreds of thousands in Indonesia alone!) is by surreptitiously including casualties caused by prolonged wars like WWI and WWII; casualties of civil wars against the ancien regime; famines (the special pleading here is simply contemptible---try arguing that the British Empire massacred the Irish in the Great Famine!) and casualties of civil wars within the new regime, such as the Cultural Revolution or the collectivization campaign in the USSR.

The latter was a peasant rebellion, in many ways like Pugachev's or Stenka Razin's. As such, it wasn't just hapless masses tormented by crazed ideologues (Stalin was notoriously the "practical" guy vs. the ideological Trotsky!) There were thousands of CP militants killed. And of course Stalin killed even more. Anyone who could seriously compare that with rounding up people and shoving them into gas chambers is just disgusting.

PS The US has spent hundreds of billions of dollars killing millions of people in wars for decades, against leftists. Not noticing is really thick.
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Old February 12 2009, 02:07 AM   #321
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what's wrong with this nerd?
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Old February 12 2009, 02:47 AM   #322
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj wrote: View Post
Yet Zarek was portrayed as resorting to indiscriminate mass slaughter, unprovoked by threats, disdaining all alternatives, the moment he had a chance. Of course it matters who starts that kind of violence. I don't think you honestly believe it doesn't. Nor do I see how you can imagine the mere passage of a few hours or days makes a difference.
I won't argue with the rest of your post concerning history. It's far more thought out and informed on the subject than anything I could put together at this point in my life and education.

I'm not sure where the allegation that people haven't noticed the US spending billions to kill people in wars (often against leftists) is directed, though. Many of these activities fall under the period of the Cold War, where it was our modus operandi to support right-wing dictators and the like against any movement that even smelled like "communism." Often at the expense of legitimate democracies.

The US isn't the sole perpetrator, either. When the European powers supposedly decolonized Africa, leaders like Lumumba who opposed western economic interests weren't tolerated. They were just labeled as "communists" and killed in favor of leaders more friendly to the west. But you know all this, probably better than I.

What I will respond to is the false claim that Zarek resorted to indiscriminate mass slaughter unprovoken by threats while disdaining any alternatives. He wanted Adama and Roslin dead, because they were the most likely to lead a viable movement against Zarek. He gave Adama a kangaroo court before sentencing. Roslin would have probably earned the same if she hadn't have escaped on board the Raptor and fled towards the base ship. The only people he orders outright killed are the quorum--an eleven member body (twelve counting the absent Lee). This only happens when they announce they won't support Zarek as President, or Gaeta as Admiral. Zarek doesn't have the resources to effectively imprison them, or torture them, so when they announce they're opposing him he orders them killed. Notice Gatea isn't even confident most of his soldiers will be able to execute Adama, even after he's been "legally" sentenced. He tells Narcho to only take his most trusted men, and of those, Captain Kelly can't bring himself to do it. Zarek might have two men to kill all of the quorum, but he doesn't have enough men to imprison them and torture them effectively. The Cylons can be imprisoned because his movement is essentially a movement against the Cylons--that's the one popular element he has on his side. Adama and his officers can be imprisoned because they've been going with the plan to work with the Cylons. But the quorum were opposing the Cylon plan all along--there's no legitimate pretense for most of the soldiers to hold them, or especially to torture them.

Anyone else who is killed is a result of violent clashes between mutineers and loyalists.

Socialist and Communist would be leftist. The insistence on falsifying descriptors like Left arises from the need to pretend there is a significant range of acceptable opinion in the US.
I disagree on the point that the leftist is only definable in terms of communism and socialism--those are two kinds of leftist politics, but I'd plot a wider spectrum of opinion than that. Communism and socialism are on the most extreme Left, to be sure. But when I talk about the Right, I'm generally including a wider ideology than just fascism.

Republicans call Democrats the Left precisely because they think it conjures up "socialism" and "communism" in the minds of voters. I'd like to hold onto the fantasy that voters aren't that stupid for a little bit longer. Yes, Democrats are far closer to the center than the left, but they still fall to the left of the spectrum in most books I've seen.
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Old February 12 2009, 02:54 AM   #323
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Johnny Rico wrote: View Post
tomalak301 wrote: View Post
The best parts were Adama and Roslin. Both of them were badasses in this episode.
"No...not now...not ever....I'm coming for all of you!!!"

Gave me chills...
Yeah, that was one of the best parts.
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Old February 12 2009, 04:24 AM   #324
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Re: stj

Mr.Bartell wrote: View Post
what's wrong with this nerd?
Infraction for flaming. If you have need of discussing this, please contact me via PM
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Old February 12 2009, 12:06 PM   #325
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj wrote: View Post
Despite the filthy prejudices of small and ignorant minds like [b]Starship Polaris'[/i],
A clear and present flame = an infraction





It's good to get serious discussion going, and nuBSG is no stranger to that. However, let's reconnect with the episode as well, okay?
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Old February 12 2009, 06:53 PM   #326
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj, although I don't disagree with you on your critique of anti-leftist revisionism, where was it indicated that Zarek was a leftist? He never really spouted much ideology, except for "Colonial Day," and what he said there couldn't easily be construed as "left" or "right," in that it's so vastly different from anything we've experienced.

He was always consistent about seeking power, but didn't seem to espouse a consistent political agenda.
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Old February 12 2009, 07:04 PM   #327
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
stj, although I don't disagree with you on your critique of anti-leftist revisionism, where was it indicated that Zarek was a leftist? He never really spouted much ideology, except for "Colonial Day," and what he said there couldn't easily be construed as "left" or "right," in that it's so vastly different from anything we've experienced.

He was always consistent about seeking power, but didn't seem to espouse a consistent political agenda.
Well he was certainly pro the death penalty and was pro secret tribunals as seen in "Collaborators" and that leans more towards a Bush side of thinking.
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Old February 12 2009, 08:08 PM   #328
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

That was great! And good riddance to Gaeta - but Zarek should just have been shot in the face out of hand, or quietly disappeared- unlike Gaeta he's not military so shouldn't qualify for courtmartial and the firing squad. It gives him too much honour.
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Old February 12 2009, 10:56 PM   #329
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
That was great! And good riddance to Gaeta - but Zarek should just have been shot in the face out of hand, or quietly disappeared- unlike Gaeta he's not military so shouldn't qualify for courtmartial and the firing squad. It gives him too much honour.
I don't think there's any honour in death by firing squad and to draw real world parallels, a number of countries use firing squads as a means of execution for criminals. The only possible difference can be just who makes up the firinq squad (police or military). As the marines are used for policing duties in the RTF that issue is also covered.
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Old February 12 2009, 11:29 PM   #330
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

sidious618 wrote: View Post
Well he was certainly pro the death penalty and was pro secret tribunals as seen in "Collaborators" and that leans more towards a Bush side of thinking.
Yeah, because Communist governments have never held secret trials or caused thousands of people to disappear. Ever heard of China's execution busses?
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