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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

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Old February 10 2009, 05:36 PM   #286
Sci
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Of course the script wrote it otherwise, because 1.) leftists are evil/maniacal/demonic and 2.) it was more fun watching Zarek kill people.
There was nothing fun watching Zarek order the death of the quorum. He doesn't give the order with glee, or certainty, but out of regret and necessity. It's possible that he could intimidate a few to his side with interrogation, but he doesn't even have the manpower to keep key prisoners locked up, or to fight Adama's relatively small force from reaching the bridge, etc. In his eyes, it's a coup, and if the leadership isn't willing to cooperate, it's easier to kill them then to gamble on being able to keep dangerous voices locked up and away from the populace.

Zarek isn't much of a leftist at this point in the series, either, assuming his cries for democracy in Bastille Day were ever genuine.

And, just an observation. By placing the violence off screen, and then seeing the results later, the effect of the violence is magnified.

In the end, Zarek is neither maniacal, nor a leftist, nor is watching him kill the quorum any fun. Not in my reading, anyway.
It's okay. Stj thinks that everything is advocating a conservative, anti-liberal political message. Battlestar Galactica could do an episode where Roslin and Adama endorse universal health care, abolish the monetary system, place the means of production into the hands of the proletariat, and set up an alter to Karl Marx, and he'd still complain that it's a jingoistic work of conservative propaganda.
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Old February 10 2009, 05:42 PM   #287
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
The Galactica goes where Adama tells it to go. It's an extension of Adama. Unless we find out that the Galactica is alive and has free will and is actually the one determining the path of this fleet -- Gods help us if they do something that silly -- then it's not a leader.

I think people are getting caught up on the "dying" part. Yes, Galactica is "dying." But just about everyone on this show is either dying or dead, so anyone's a candidate based on that. Well, anyone who can be considered a leader, that is.
I agree with that totally. In fact, last year I theorized that Adama would be the dying leader and that Roslin would survive for the increased drama it creates. This appears to be a growing possibility, although clearly not certain.

I see several major possibilities but they all involve the leader being a person. I think it's also crucial to keep the "promised land" distinct from Earth. They're probably different things, except for scenario #1 below.

1) The leader is Starbuck who did lead them (or helped at least) to Earth. She could've technically died before she reached Earth and then resurrected.

2) It's Roslin and the key is that she does in fact die before getting to the "promised land", which is not Earth.

3) It's someone other than Roslin who dies before reaching the "promised land."

4) The prophesies turn out to be bunk. This further throws the colonists for a loop.

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Old February 10 2009, 05:45 PM   #288
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
The Galactica goes where Adama tells it to go. It's an extension of Adama. Unless we find out that the Galactica is alive and has free will and is actually the one determining the path of this fleet -- Gods help us if they do something that silly -- then it's not a leader.

I think people are getting caught up on the "dying" part. Yes, Galactica is "dying." But just about everyone on this show is either dying or dead, so anyone's a candidate based on that. Well, anyone who can be considered a leader, that is.
I agree with that totally. In fact, last year I theorized that Adama would be the dying leader and that Roslin would survive for the increased drama it creates. This appears to be a growing possibility, although clearly not certain.

I see several major possibilities but they all involve the leader being a person. I think it's also crucial to keep the "promised land" distinct from Earth. They're probably different things, except for scenario #1 below.

1) The leader is Starbuck who did lead them (or helped at least) to Earth. She could've technically died before she reached Earth and then resurrected.

2) It's Roslin and the key is that she does in fact die before getting to the "promised land", which is not Earth.

3) It's someone other than Roslin who dies before reaching the "promised land."

Mr Awe
Interesting theories you got there.
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Old February 10 2009, 05:53 PM   #289
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Final possibility: the "real" answer will never be made clear, because the prophecy isn't a testable theory based on facts - it's a belief by which people in the show who believe give meaning to events, just as such prophecies are in the real world.
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Old February 10 2009, 06:02 PM   #290
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

^^ That's a good one too, and entirely believable. It maybe as testable/specific as one of Nostrodamus' (sp?) "prophesies".
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Old February 10 2009, 06:07 PM   #291
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Exactly.

The importance of the prophecies here isn't how or whether they turn out to be true. It's that the characters find meaning in them and use them to justify their actions.

The exception, of course, might be Kara Thrace & Her Special Destiny.
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Old February 10 2009, 06:59 PM   #292
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Sci wrote: View Post
It's okay. Stj thinks that everything is advocating a conservative, anti-liberal political message. Battlestar Galactica could do an episode where Roslin and Adama endorse universal health care, abolish the monetary system, place the means of production into the hands of the proletariat, and set up an alter to Karl Marx, and he'd still complain that it's a jingoistic work of conservative propaganda.
I have also wondered how Battlestar Galactica's supposed right-wing bias fits with Ronald D. Moore's and David Eick's support for Barack Obama and the Democratic Party (hint: check out their campaign contributions).

I mean, in 24's case some of the producers are at least actual Republicans.
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Old February 10 2009, 07:06 PM   #293
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Lots of people love to be thrown from a height and jerked around. It's called riding a roller coaster and it is commonly called "fun." If you want to object that Zarek's massacre increased the tension instead, fine---The script had Zarek do that because he wanted to be thrilling, not fun.

As for silly objections about the inability to keep people confined, spaceships are an intrinsically confined environment, even if the show often pretends the characters can roam about freely.

As for Zarek not being a leftist, he never was. He's always been a caricature of a Sixties radical, just like the mad bomber peaceniks were.
But he was always meant to be a portrayal of a leftist, and everyone knows it. Objecting that he's just a caricature, while defending BSG's truthfulness and realistic characterization, really is kind of pitiful.

Unfortunately, I can't be so kind to this---

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Well, for starters leftist coups tend to be pretty bloody - as do right-wing coups. Pretending otherwise is just blinkered political orthodoxy. Fact is, whether doctrinaire leftists are "maniacal" or not they are, like doctrinaire right-wingers, allergic to facts and boring pains in the ass.
This is the voice of "blinkered political orthodoxy" speaking in person, which is why there are no facts in that post. A comparison between such left wing "coups" as the Paris Commune or the Spanish Loyalists to such right wing coups as Pinochet's in Chile or Suharto's shows how dishonest the claim of equality in bloodiness truly is. Pretty much every example of the supposedly equally bloody leftist coups is either not particularly bloody or not a coup or not leftist. This poster just pronounces conventional wisdom swiped from somewhere other than this bbs. He has zero ability to make a real argument, as in citing a single fact.

But then, what can you expect of someone who can write---
That, in a nutshell, is the kind of thing that I enjoy about this show - I don't think much of Roslin, but she's believable and Mary McDonnell does a flawless job with her.
BSG fans are fanatical about Taking Nonsense Seriously. But the idea that a woman would fall in love with the man who arrested her and gave her a psychotic break in a jail cell is not believable. Fun, in a loopy kind of way, maybe, for people with minority sexual tastes, but never believable.
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Old February 10 2009, 07:10 PM   #294
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

They could have drug this out for a couple of more episodes, but overall: EXCELLENT. This is the best episode they've done in a while and the ending was phenomenal.
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Old February 10 2009, 07:26 PM   #295
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Starbreaker wrote: View Post
They could have drug this out for a couple of more episodes,
No, I'm glad they didn't. The coup was a logical outcome given the course of events. I'm glad they showed it. If they hadn't, an easy acceptance of a truce with the rebel Cylons wouldn't have been believable.

However, having said that, strife in the fleet and challanges to the government and military structure are well worn ground in BSG. There's no need to drag it out. Especially not when there are bigger fish to fry before the finale.

I think the writers produced a perfect balance. Show a reasonable resistance to the truce yet didn't get bogged down in it at the expense of the larger issues.

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Old February 10 2009, 07:56 PM   #296
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj wrote: View Post
As for Zarek not being a leftist, he never was. He's always been a caricature of a Sixties radical, just like the mad bomber peaceniks were.
I really don't see how it's the least bit reasonable to try to constantly equate the political mechanisms and movements of a fictional society to the real world. Allegories are not always solid, point-by-point comparisons that merely replace a real name with a fictional one. I don't look at Zarek and think, "SDS or Weather Underground." I look at Zarek and think of Timothy McVeigh.
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Old February 10 2009, 08:09 PM   #297
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
I have also wondered how Battlestar Galactica's supposed right-wing bias fits with Ronald D. Moore's and David Eick's support for Barack Obama and the Democratic Party (hint: check out their campaign contributions).
Not to mention the whinging by the oldBSG Righties back in 2003 that Moore's version was a "blame America first" wolf in skiffy sheep's clothing.

God, those old political catchphrases are so dated only six years later.
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Old February 10 2009, 09:14 PM   #298
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
I have also wondered how Battlestar Galactica's supposed right-wing bias fits with Ronald D. Moore's and David Eick's support for Barack Obama and the Democratic Party (hint: check out their campaign contributions).
Not to mention the whinging by the oldBSG Righties back in 2003 that Moore's version was a "blame America first" wolf in skiffy sheep's clothing.

God, those old political catchphrases are so dated only six years later.

Actually, the lefties have been portrayed as nuts on BSG, like the peace freaks trying to disable the Galactica, the only military unit protecting their sorry butts from the cylons.

The show has been pretty even showing both sides. The way people drool over Obama it is like the followers of Baltar.


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Old February 10 2009, 09:37 PM   #299
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

stj wrote: View Post
A comparison between such left wing "coups" as the Paris Commune or the Spanish Loyalists to such right wing coups as Pinochet's in Chile or Suharto's shows how dishonest the claim of equality in bloodiness truly is. Pretty much every example of the supposedly equally bloody leftist coups is either not particularly bloody or not a coup or not leftist. This poster just pronounces conventional wisdom swiped from somewhere other than this bbs. He has zero ability to make a real argument, as in citing a single fact.
What about the Bolshevik Revolution and the Reign of Terror following the French Revolution? What about Castro's Cuban Revolution? Violent, bloody, and ultimately leftist movements. This isn't to deny the reality of equally bloodless leftist coups (the Carnation Revolution in Portugal, etc.) or bloody right-wing coups (a number in Turkey during the Cold War, etc.), but let's talk honestly here.

All of these comparisons are a bit off, of course, because we're talking about a failed coup d'etat in this case. Gaeta and Zarek were ultimately arrested and shot. Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be Che Guevera in Bolivia, or the failed Operation Valkyrie in Germany.

BSG fans are fanatical about Taking Nonsense Seriously. But the idea that a woman would fall in love with the man who arrested her and gave her a psychotic break in a jail cell is not believable. Fun, in a loopy kind of way, maybe, for people with minority sexual tastes, but never believable.
A "psychotic break?" The two reconciled in Home, II and they've worked closely together ever since. Actually, considering how few people are in the fleet, and their leadership positions, it's sort of logical that they would become close. Yes, they have ideological differences, but it's foolish to assume that real people couldn't overcome such things.

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
I have also wondered how Battlestar Galactica's supposed right-wing bias fits with Ronald D. Moore's and David Eick's support for Barack Obama and the Democratic Party (hint: check out their campaign contributions).

I mean, in 24's case some of the producers are at least actual Republicans.
Ancillary evidence, really, that isn't useful without other facts. 24 has been its most conservative ever in season seven, and that was with the departure of highly conservative series creator Joel Surnow. Most of the writers on that show, it turns out, are liberals. In season six, the split among the writing staff was 7-2 liberal to conservative.
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Old February 10 2009, 09:49 PM   #300
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x14: "Blood on the Scales"

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post
What about the Bolshevik Revolution and the Reign of Terror following the French Revolution? What about Castro's Cuban Revolution? Violent, bloody, and ultimately leftist movements.
I'm sure that he'll explain why they weren't "leftist."
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