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Old July 30 2009, 02:33 PM   #91
Myasishchev
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
Personally, I found the Pakleds to be interesting.

And by interesting, I mean chumps I could build an empire around.
But they are SMART.
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Old July 30 2009, 02:43 PM   #92
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
Personally, I found the Pakleds to be interesting.

And by interesting, I mean chumps I could build an empire around.
But they are SMART.
And they make things go!

(that's enough Pakleds for today - ed)
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Old July 30 2009, 03:01 PM   #93
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Jono wrote: View Post
Personally I didn't find the Cardassians to be the most interesting race in Star Trek. There are many more other races that I find more interesting and make me want to know more about them.
I've always been kind of ambivalent to the Cardassians as an overall race.
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Old July 31 2009, 12:21 AM   #94
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I have a question about Cardassian technology.

Were they not as established in some episodes of TNG has having technology that was not as advanced as the Feds? Like a century behind them?

Then in DS9 they are about on a par with the Feds. I can see them getting a big advance in tech from the Dominion, but they seemed to be pretty much equal or better in some ways in terms of technology as the Feds at the start of the show. Or did I just see too much?
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Old July 31 2009, 12:37 AM   #95
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

They're the Federation's neighbours - methinks they'res going to be some technology leakage, despite Starfleet's best efforts. The ATR-4107 Missile O' Doom was equipped with quantam torpedoes - a recent development as of the late 2360s/early 2370s. I see their ships as being technically roughly on par with Starfleet vessels - but I don't think the Cardassians have ships as big and powerful as the Galaxy-Class etc. - which is why all the confrontations in TNG were like "STFU or we'll pwn u, stupid spnheds, lol". I think they have less resources than the Federation and basically have to make do with smaller, more single-purpose designs. I see Cardassia's starfleet as far smaller and more specialized than the Federation Starfleet - masters of making lemonade out of lemons, if you will forgive the Earthcentric metaphor.
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Old July 31 2009, 02:42 AM   #96
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I'd figure just about any of the monolithic societies would be at a severe disadvantage technologically to the Federation. Just by numbers, it's almost certain that the Federation draws its brains from a population well dozens of times the size of free Cardassia. Add in a totalitarian government, which, depending on how bent it is toward its ideology, can often have a chilling effect on scientific progress--e.g., iirc human genetics was a verboten science in the USSR for some time, and Nazi Germany decided there was nothing more likely to restore the German economy than to drive some of their most brilliant scientists to Britain and America and then put large numbers of their skilled workers in camps.
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Old July 31 2009, 03:00 AM   #97
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Edit: Double your pleasure, double your fun!
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Old July 31 2009, 03:43 AM   #98
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

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I would be positively appalled if the Cardassians were ever to join the Federation. Oil and water, my friends, oil and water. I am also in agreement that it would be an intriguing development if the Cardassians were able to rebuild and gain allies to the point of serving as a foil for the Federation, rather than an all out enemy. However, I would see their taking this stance a difficult sell for the people. Even most of the non-villainous Cardassians indicated a certain degree not only of xenophobia but a feeling of racial superiority. It would be hard for people who genuinely believed themselves to be better than all other races to accept much in the way of help or camaraderie from others, particularly others with whom they have bitterly clashed in the past.
Of course, I'm not entirely sure how far the xenophobia actually spreads. The degree to which people actually buy into that is always doubtful when we're dealing with totalitarianism, because you never know who's acting that way because they believe it, or who's acting that way because they know they'd be shot if they didn't.

War guilt, as someone else mentioned, will now factor heavily into the collective Cardassian psyche. They could not rely much on the help of others primarily because they had spit in the eyes of anyone within spitting distance already and cast themselves in a cruel light by what they did to the Bajoran people and planet and in prior wars and skirmishes. The one thing I can't see them doing that other races are more prone to is whining about how it was unfair or how they are victims. It's just not in their nature. I personally think one of the strengths of Cardassian culture is the insistence on dealing with reality as it is, not on wishful thinking or fantasy.
That sounds about right...I would also be concerned about the effect of the war guilt as well, especially because I think there are those who would enjoy taking it out on them. We just have to hope they don't wind up in a Treaty of Versailles-type punitive situation, because that could just set up a future war that they AND the rest of the galaxy do not need.
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Old July 31 2009, 05:17 AM   #99
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Of course, I'm not entirely sure how far the xenophobia actually spreads. The degree to which people actually buy into that is always doubtful when we're dealing with totalitarianism, because you never know who's acting that way because they believe it, or who's acting that way because they know they'd be shot if they didn't.
That's a good point. Also, with Cardassia occupied by relief workers who are actually doing them some good, they will get the chance to see that not every other alien race was untrustworthy or "out to get them".

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That sounds about right...I would also be concerned about the effect of the war guilt as well, especially because I think there are those who would enjoy taking it out on them. We just have to hope they don't wind up in a Treaty of Versailles-type punitive situation, because that could just set up a future war that they AND the rest of the galaxy do not need.
Also a good point. Those wanting to punish them should think long and hard about long-term consequences of taking such a hard line stance. In a way, a weakened Cardassia is an opportunity to bring them somewhat out of their insular ways and show them that sometimes compromise really does mean win-win. Being too punitive will just breed resentment. Nobody holds a grudge as well as a Cardassian, except perhaps a Klingon, but with the Klingon you see it coming. With the Cardassian you almost never do.
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Old July 31 2009, 06:35 AM   #100
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

PSGarak wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Of course, I'm not entirely sure how far the xenophobia actually spreads. The degree to which people actually buy into that is always doubtful when we're dealing with totalitarianism, because you never know who's acting that way because they believe it, or who's acting that way because they know they'd be shot if they didn't.
That's a good point. Also, with Cardassia occupied by relief workers who are actually doing them some good, they will get the chance to see that not every other alien race was untrustworthy or "out to get them".
Definitely. Firsthand experience will be a great help, I think. I'll have to PM you sometime with something I've worked on, along exactly these lines. It's not ready for release, though, but I think you might like the concept...

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That sounds about right...I would also be concerned about the effect of the war guilt as well, especially because I think there are those who would enjoy taking it out on them. We just have to hope they don't wind up in a Treaty of Versailles-type punitive situation, because that could just set up a future war that they AND the rest of the galaxy do not need.
Also a good point. Those wanting to punish them should think long and hard about long-term consequences of taking such a hard line stance. In a way, a weakened Cardassia is an opportunity to bring them somewhat out of their insular ways and show them that sometimes compromise really does mean win-win. Being too punitive will just breed resentment. Nobody holds a grudge as well as a Cardassian, except perhaps a Klingon, but with the Klingon you see it coming. With the Cardassian you almost never do.
Exactly. And with Cardassians, you'd have to worry about it not just one generation down the line, but several...
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Old July 31 2009, 06:41 AM   #101
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

^ I can't get PM's yet, but my two week time period should be almost up. I'm looking forward to it!
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Old July 31 2009, 03:05 PM   #102
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Alas PSGarak you still have over a week to go. I too would be interested to see what you've cooked up Nerys Ghemor.

That's quite an important point made about the nature of Totalitarianism, (although there are always limits to how absolute it can really be) we can never be sure who the 'real' Cardassian is and what is the front persona. By this I mean that a Cardassian would always be very careful about what he/she says or does and would always bury their true feelings. So you can never tell what is true or not for example who Mr Garak actually is. (It's true that ASiT revels a lot about Elim Garak but it comes from the mans own diary for the consumption of one Dr Bashir...)

I think that Damar and one or two others maybe the exception that proves the rule. His rather gruff abrasive manner and his obvious sense of inferiority is the polar opposite of the slickness of Dukat and Garak. Damar truly believes in the Cardassian people and when he realised that he had failed them he turned to drink, it was only with the rebellion that Damar found his strength and leadership. (and like any true patriot he learned to face up to some unpleasant truths about his nation, witness the brilliant scene with Kira in tacking into the wind). However Damar is, in my eyes a rather rare individual in the Cardassian system, most Cardassians are either narcissistic like Dukat or sycophantic like Broca.

On the plus side the Cardassian people must enjoy a dark and sardonic sense of humor...
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Old July 31 2009, 03:40 PM   #103
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Indeed, I imagine they would.

Tekeny Ghemor would also be a major exception--but then again, I actually got the idea a lot of Cardassians could be decent: Gilora Rejal and Ulani Belor seemed like they were.

And I'll send you a PM, Thor, explaining what I'm up to.
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Old August 1 2009, 12:26 AM   #104
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

^ Natima Lang, her students... Mila also seemed a quite straightforward old lady. Some of the military Cardies we've met weren't nice but weren't particularly narcissistic or sycophantic either, just your average gruff military types. Rusot was one such, only dimmer and more prejudiced than Damar. I think we've seen all sorts of different Cardassian personalities, even though we've seen just a small portion of the population, and almost none of them were 'ordinary people'.

Really, is it logical to derive such a broad generalization based on the few Cardassian individuals who obviously can't be typical of the entire population of billions, since they are distinguished figures in 1) military and politics or 2) secret police.
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Old August 1 2009, 12:31 AM   #105
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

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^ Natima Lang, her students... Mila also seemed a quite straightforward old lady. Some of the military Cardies we've met weren't nice but weren't particularly narcissistic or sycophantic either, just your average gruff military types. Rusot was one such, only dimmer and more prejudiced than Damar. I think we've seen all sorts of different Cardassian personalities, even though we've seen just a small portion of the population, and almost none of them were 'ordinary people'.

Really, is it logical to derive such a broad generalization based on the few Cardassian individuals who obviously can't be typical of the entire population of billions, since they are distinguished figures in 1) military and politics or 2) secret police.
No it is not. Thank god that we saw such a level of characterization in the Cardassians that we saw onscreen. In fact I would argue that they are the most realistic of the trek races. (was going to say the most human but...)
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