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Old February 6 2009, 06:09 PM   #1
TedShatner10
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Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Is it some sort of sick, satirical joke that the stooping, money obsessed, and weird nosed Ferengi characters are disproportinately played by Jews?! Even if they're not necessarily played by Jewish actors/actresses, Quark's mother was later played by an Armenian actress, another ethnic group somewhat similar to the Jews who even had their own holocaust nearly 30 years before the actual Holocaust.

Although Armin Shimerman is Jewish, out of make up he does not look quintessentially Jewish, and looks somewhat like Marc Alaimo and Rene Auberjonois, in that he is a narrow faced Western European. But there has been a lot of bleeding between Jews and non-Jews throughout history, with the ostensibly Arab Palestinians essentially being estranged cousins, and you had Nazi officers who looked slightly Middle Eastern (insinuating possible Jewish roots) like Adolf Eichmann and Eric Von Manstein.

I just find it a darkly amusing observation.
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Old February 6 2009, 06:38 PM   #2
Thor Damar
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Given recent events in the Middle east and the seriousness of the threat of Antisemitism I feel really uncomfortable with this line of discussion.

This isn't a criticism of yourself but just that something like Antisemitism should not be discussed like this.
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Old February 6 2009, 08:24 PM   #3
Haytil
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

TedShatner10 wrote:
Is it some sort of sick, satirical joke that the stooping, money obsessed, and weird nosed Ferengi characters are disproportinately played by Jews?!
There are a lot of Jews in Hollywood. And the producers have gone on record saying Ferengi aren't stereotypes of Jews - they're stereotypes of 20th century human capitalists - i.e., modern Western society.

Even if they're not necessarily played by Jewish actors/actresses, Quark's mother was later played by an Armenian actress
There you go, disproving your own point - Ishka wasn't portrayed by a Jew.

another ethnic group somewhat similar to the Jews who even had their own holocaust nearly 30 years before the actual Holocaust.
So what are you getting at, all of them Holocaust victims have to stick together?

Every race has been victim of genocide at one time or another. Being a victim of genocide doesn't make your race any more special than anyone else, and doesn't mean you have anything particularly in common between two groups that you don't have between any other two.

But there has been a lot of bleeding between Jews and non-Jews throughout history, with the ostensibly Arab Palestinians essentially being estranged cousins
Why are the Arabs the "estranged cousins?" That's a very ethnocentric point of view, there - especially given that the modern breakdown in relations between Arabs and Jews were not initiated by the Arabs.

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Given recent events in the Middle east and the seriousness of the threat of Antisemitism I feel really uncomfortable with this line of discussion.
What's going on in the Middle East has nothing to do with anti-semitism. That's just an empty label used by Western powers to justify slaughter and interference, and its use in such an ignorant manner is offensive.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the OP.
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Old February 6 2009, 08:32 PM   #4
RobertScorpio
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Haytil wrote: View Post
TedShatner10 wrote:
Is it some sort of sick, satirical joke that the stooping, money obsessed, and weird nosed Ferengi characters are disproportinately played by Jews?!
There are a lot of Jews in Hollywood. And the producers have gone on record saying Ferengi aren't stereotypes of Jews - they're stereotypes of 20th century human capitalists - i.e., modern Western society.

Even if they're not necessarily played by Jewish actors/actresses, Quark's mother was later played by an Armenian actress
There you go, disproving your own point - Ishka wasn't portrayed by a Jew.

So what are you getting at, all of them Holocaust victims have to stick together?

Every race has been victim of genocide at one time or another. Being a victim of genocide doesn't make your race any more special than anyone else, and doesn't mean you have anything particularly in common between two groups that you don't have between any other two.

But there has been a lot of bleeding between Jews and non-Jews throughout history, with the ostensibly Arab Palestinians essentially being estranged cousins
Why are the Arabs the "estranged cousins?" That's a very ethnocentric point of view, there - especially given that the modern breakdown in relations between Arabs and Jews were not initiated by the Arabs.

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Given recent events in the Middle east and the seriousness of the threat of Antisemitism I feel really uncomfortable with this line of discussion.
What's going on in the Middle East has nothing to do with anti-semitism. That's just an empty label used by Western powers to justify slaughter and interference, and its use in such an ignorant manner is offensive.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the OP.
Mixing STAR TREK with POLITICS, in this kind of blunt way, is very risky...

Now, having said that, Mr. Haytil, how would you lable the Iranian President? Certainly a man who denies the Holocaust, and has hosted several conventions on the subject, and who says pretty outlandish things all the time (All jews should be wiped out) as he has on several occasions, certainly must be, by defintion, an antisemite...or, is it more Poltically Correct to just dismiss his rants as 'uniformed?"

Rob
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Old February 6 2009, 08:52 PM   #5
Haytil
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Mixing STAR TREK with POLITICS, in this kind of blunt way, is very risky...

Now, having said that, Mr. Haytil, how would you lable the Iranian President? Certainly a man who denies the Holocaust
Ahmadinejad hasn't denied the existence of the Holocaust, just the implicit attitude that none of the "facts" of what happened can ever be questioned or investigated in a neutral, historical context. Much of what he has been said has been twisted and mis-translated by Western media. This has forced him to subsequently clarify - and yet, the media conveniently ignores such clarifications.

and has hosted several conventions on the subject,
What is wrong with holding a convention to discuss the Holocaust and what really happened? All Ahmadinejad has suggested is that certain facts are blown out of proportion - and indeed they are. The Holocaust ended up with the death of millions of people, both Jews and non-Jews - and yet, all we ever hear about are how the Holocaust affected the Jews. Can you really deny that?

Western media labels the conventions as "Holocaust Denial" conventions - despite Iran's statements to the contrary. Who would know better - the people holding the convention, or the people on the other side of the globe who have a vested interest in vilifying the Iranians?

and who says pretty outlandish things all the time (All jews should be wiped out) as he has on several occasions,
He's never said that. I challenge you to point to one instance where he has.

Don't make the mistake of equating "Israel" with "All Jews." If you do so, you only play into the hand of Zionists, who use fear to make you believe that the existence of Israel is essential for the existence of all Jews - a belief that is patently false and illogical.

certainly must be, by defintion, an antisemite...
Consistently coming on the side of Arab Palestinians is proof that he's not Anti-Semitic.

Or by "anti-semite," were you not actually referring to "semitic" peoples - but rather simply "Jews," in a blanket use of the term that's been twisted by Zionists to label their opponents as racist? By equating their opponents as racist - and wrongfully perverting the use of the word "semitic" and "anti-semitic" - Zionists can draw attention away from the fact that THEIR actions and attitudes are truly the racist ones.

or, is it more Poltically Correct to just dismiss his rants as 'uniformed?"
Political Correctness has nothing to do with it - just cold, hard facts. Look at things from historical perspectives, and don't simply accept the Western Media's view of things without question.

I guarantee you - once Isreal and its Western ally stop massacring and opressing the people of the Middle East, things will calm down quite a bit. Anti-semitism's got nothing to do with it.
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Old February 6 2009, 08:54 PM   #6
RobertScorpio
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Haytil wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Mixing STAR TREK with POLITICS, in this kind of blunt way, is very risky...

Now, having said that, Mr. Haytil, how would you lable the Iranian President? Certainly a man who denies the Holocaust
Ahmadinejad hasn't denied the existence of the Holocaust, just the implicit attitude that none of the "facts" of what happened can ever be questioned or investigated in a neutral, historical context. Much of what he has been said has been twisted and mis-translated by Western media. This has forced him to subsequently clarify - and yet, the media conveniently ignores such clarifications.

and has hosted several conventions on the subject,
What is wrong with holding a convention to discuss the Holocaust and what really happened? All Ahmadinejad has suggested is that certain facts are blown out of proportion - and indeed they are. The Holocaust ended up with the death of millions of people, both Jews and non-Jews - and yet, all we ever hear about are how the Holocaust affected the Jews. Can you really deny that?

Western media labels the conventions as "Holocaust Denial" conventions - despite Iran's statements to the contrary. Who would know better - the people holding the convention, or the people on the other side of the globe who have a vested interest in vilifying the Iranians?



He's never said that. I challenge you to point to one instance where he has.

Don't make the mistake of equating "Israel" with "All Jews." If you do so, you only play into the hand of Zionists, who use fear to make you believe that the existence of Israel is essential for the existence of all Jews - a belief that is patently false and illogical.

certainly must be, by defintion, an antisemite...
Consistently coming on the side of Arab Palestinians is proof that he's not Anti-Semitic.

Or by "anti-semite," were you not actually referring to "semitic" peoples - but rather simply "Jews," in a blanket use of the term that's been twisted by Zionists to label their opponents as racist? By equating their opponents as racist - and wrongfully perverting the use of the word "semitic" and "anti-semitic" - Zionists can draw attention away from the fact that THEIR actions and attitudes are truly the racist ones.

or, is it more Poltically Correct to just dismiss his rants as 'uniformed?"
Political Correctness has nothing to do with it - just cold, hard facts. Look at things from historical perspectives, and don't simply accept the Western Media's view of things without question.

I guarantee you - once Isreal and its Western ally stop massacring and opressing the people of the Middle East, things will calm down quite a bit. Anti-semitism's got nothing to do with it.
You avoided the question. Is he an antisemite or not? Simple yes or no is all that is needed here, even if defined only in western terms.

He held those conventions trying to proof the Holocaust didn't happen, and had American and European Neo-nazies there with him, at the convention..

i will rephrase...does the President of Iran believe that Adolf Hitler wanted to exterminate the jews of Europe and sent them to consentration camps to do just that.

Rob
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Old February 6 2009, 08:56 PM   #7
Haytil
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
You avoided the question. Is he an antisemite or not? Simple yes or no is all that is needed here, even if defined only in western terms.
I don't believe I have. In fact, I've shown you that all the "evidence" used to portray him as racist is false and slanderous.

He's not, no matter what definition you use. He's not anti-Semite and he's not Anti-Jew. He's simply Anti-Zionist.
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Old February 6 2009, 09:05 PM   #8
number6
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

The Ferengi were based on Hollywood agents.

The "Judiasm" aspect is better suited to debate in TNZ. Not here. I find this conversation offensive and inappropriate.
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Old February 6 2009, 09:35 PM   #9
RobertScorpio
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Haytil wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
You avoided the question. Is he an antisemite or not? Simple yes or no is all that is needed here, even if defined only in western terms.
I don't believe I have. In fact, I've shown you that all the "evidence" used to portray him as racist is false and slanderous.

He's not, no matter what definition you use. He's not anti-Semite and he's not Anti-Jew. He's simply Anti-Zionist.
The Iranian president, in his own words;

"The Holocaust is a lie and the real Holocaust is happening to the Palestinians." (can’t deny that what has happened to the Palestinians is pretty bad, but he cuts his own words by saying the Holocaust was a lie)

"With God's help, the countdown button for the destruction of the Zionist regime has been pushed by the hands of the children of Lebanon and Palestine . . . By God's will, we will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future." (Geee..what a nice guy. Again, this is all part of history. Were the western powers wrong in creating Israel? That point could be made. But what do you really think they are just going to get up, the entire nation of Isreal, and move to Greenland or Alaska like the Iranian president has proposed? That’s just sheer lunacy.)

“They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (Hmmm…it’s a good thing those terrorists do every thing in clear view of all, and never kill women and children in the process. Such fine young men those terrorist are. )

You see, Hatyil, I am not a Jew, I am not a Christian. I am just a realist. I see the Muslims, Jews, Christians, pointing fingers at each other claiming to have the high ground, just as the Hindus and Chinese are doing, right now, in their pockets of the world.

I’m going to give you a free lesson. Don’t tell the west to unwrap itself from the Zionists, because in my ‘world view’ you’re all the same. In my cynical view of the world, nothing has changed in the savagery of man. We are still fighting over events that happened, in some cases, 2000+ years ago. And if you just step back and really see how it has all evolved you will see one simple truth. Religions, and the power of their Gods, do not guide the events of our world; power does. The stronger you are, the better off you, and by connection, your religious believes will be.

Finally...

Someday the tide will turn in the favor of Iran, and other countries aligned with it. There will be much blood spilled on both sides. A thousand or so years will go by, and then it will turn back towards the Christians or Jews, or whatever. It has done this for 2000+ years, and will continue to do so until either a comet hits our world and kills everyone, or aliens come down and eat us. Because I do not believe any side, Zionists or Palestine, Hindu or Buddist, Christians or whatever, has shown any real capacity to think about the greater common good for all of mankind (just them selves)

Shame on you all.

Rob
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Old February 6 2009, 09:41 PM   #10
Marie1
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

TBH, because I can say this without being racist... unless I can be racist against myself... LOL
Maybe some Ferengi actors are Jewish, but I thought the Ferengi practices reminded me more of Indian culture (from India, to clarify)- the constant bartering, the "give and take" instead of give- even with family, and the treatment of women that still exists now, even in the younger generations in modern North American society. I'm not saying all Indians are like this, but I think the Ferengi culture borrows way more in the direction of India. And I've noticed it heavily from personal experience, way more than any comparison with people of Jewish decent.
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Old February 6 2009, 09:52 PM   #11
Cicero
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

number6 wrote: View Post
The Ferengi were based on Hollywood agents.

The "Judiasm" aspect is better suited to debate in TNZ. Not here. I find this conversation offensive and inappropriate.
I understand a complaint of inappropriateness in this case (because of the topic of the forum), but what do you find offensive in this discussion? I see nothing which a person should reasonably find hurtful, upsetting, or angering - nor anything repulsive on its face or notably aggressive.
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Old February 6 2009, 09:52 PM   #12
Navaros
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

I'm sure the casting people didn't give any consideration to Jewishness or non-Jewishness of anyone they hired.

Shimerman and the others were rightfully hired simply because they are the best. I don't even know which Ferengi actors are Jewish or not, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey Combs isn't, unsure about the other ones. But if they are, good for them!

It would be a great tragedy to have a lesser actor in Quark's role. No one could play Quark as well as Shimerman. It's a credit to him that he can do so so perfectly, not a detriment. Ditto for any other Jewish actors who played Ferengi on DS9.
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Old February 6 2009, 10:05 PM   #13
RobertScorpio
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Navaros wrote: View Post
I'm sure the casting people didn't give any consideration to Jewishness or non-Jewishness of anyone they hired.

Shimerman and the others were rightfully hired simply because they are the best. I don't even know which Ferengi actors are Jewish or not, I'm pretty sure Jeffrey Combs isn't, unsure about the other ones. But if they are, good for them!

It would be a great tragedy to have a lesser actor in Quark's role. No one could play Quark as well as Shimerman. It's a credit to him that he can do so so perfectly, not a detriment. Ditto for any other Jewish actors who played Ferengi on DS9.
About two months before DS9 aired I saw a group photo of the cast. They are all in a cave or something like that, and the picture didn't have their names or character names..when I saw Quark I thought he looked like this mexican actor I had seen on Mexican-soaps at the time (My girl friend of the time watched Mexican soaps all the time...they were pretty cool, especially since she liked act out ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the parts for me)

Rob
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Old February 6 2009, 10:26 PM   #14
Thor Damar
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Haytil wrote: View Post
TedShatner10 wrote:
Is it some sort of sick, satirical joke that the stooping, money obsessed, and weird nosed Ferengi characters are disproportinately played by Jews?!
There are a lot of Jews in Hollywood. And the producers have gone on record saying Ferengi aren't stereotypes of Jews - they're stereotypes of 20th century human capitalists - i.e., modern Western society.

Even if they're not necessarily played by Jewish actors/actresses, Quark's mother was later played by an Armenian actress
There you go, disproving your own point - Ishka wasn't portrayed by a Jew.

So what are you getting at, all of them Holocaust victims have to stick together?

Every race has been victim of genocide at one time or another. Being a victim of genocide doesn't make your race any more special than anyone else, and doesn't mean you have anything particularly in common between two groups that you don't have between any other two.

But there has been a lot of bleeding between Jews and non-Jews throughout history, with the ostensibly Arab Palestinians essentially being estranged cousins
Why are the Arabs the "estranged cousins?" That's a very ethnocentric point of view, there - especially given that the modern breakdown in relations between Arabs and Jews were not initiated by the Arabs.

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Given recent events in the Middle east and the seriousness of the threat of Antisemitism I feel really uncomfortable with this line of discussion.
What's going on in the Middle East has nothing to do with anti-semitism. That's just an empty label used by Western powers to justify slaughter and interference, and its use in such an ignorant manner is offensive.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the OP.

I would like to address the last point that you raised firstly I should state that I agree with your definition of the current crisis in Gaza, in that antisemitism, or the accusation thereof, is used to try and silence critics of the invasion. ( I will not say any more on that subject as it is beyond the scope of this thread).

And the use of the antisemitism as a label IS a very serious issue which is why the title of this thread worried me. The description of the Ferengi in the starting post is perilously close to some of the Racist attacks on people of Jewish exaction.

And politics and sci-fi do make uneasy bedfellows which was another reason why I strongly disagreed with the OP.
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Old February 6 2009, 10:49 PM   #15
RobertScorpio
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Re: Ferengis and Jewish Stereotyping.

Haytil wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
You avoided the question. Is he an antisemite or not? Simple yes or no is all that is needed here, even if defined only in western terms.
I don't believe I have. In fact, I've shown you that all the "evidence" used to portray him as racist is false and slanderous.

He's not, no matter what definition you use. He's not anti-Semite and he's not Anti-Jew. He's simply Anti-Zionist.
Either the Jews have religious claims on that land, or they dont. Either the Muslims do, or they don't. Or, its quite possible that both do.

The world isn't going to cry over the past of a given people, thats just the way it is. Thats the reason you don't see Americans leaving by the millions back to where ever they came so as the native Americans can have their 'sacred' hunting lands back...

In history there are winners and losers...it is just that simple. And who ever wins gets the spoils. True, the west carved out that land and gave it to the Jews..well...so what. It happened and you can not undo what has been done. In fact, taking it back by force would, as the Terrorist and Iran would like to do, is far more grounded in history, since that his how things get done on this world.

I wish we would have evolved beyond the simplicity of force, be we never have and we never will. From Dafor, to Palestine, to the jews of WW2, and Tibet even now...man will run over man because that the lay of the land.

As Star Trek fans, I know, we should believe in more lofty nature of man kind. In fact, John Lennon's IMAGINE would be a great starting point...but because many people are still brought up believing in belief systems that date back to ancient times, not much is going to change, even by the 23rd century I am afraid. (And I think that is why TREK is so popular. Its the ideal future that I think most people beleive is never going to happen. Its delusional hope. And if it creates appealing Television, I'm all for it!!)

Rob
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