Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? - Page 4

M · March 30 2009, 01:30 AM

I must be weird, because before joining this board I never felt of Neelix as a pedophile. I always accepted that Kes belonged to a species which due to its short lifespan has an enormously fast way of learning things and growing up. Maybe that's a quite fantastic notion. But so are warp speed and transporter technology.

Maybe I should have reflected about it more thoroughly. But then again, maybe you guys are overthinking it.

TheGodBen · March 30 2009, 02:37 AM

I never got the sense that Neelix was a paedophile until I started rewatching the show, now I see it constantly when he is together with Kes. He has a very paternal relationship with her, always explaining things to her... it makes me want to grab my pitchfork and prepare my angry mob chants.

Praetor · March 30 2009, 05:17 AM

NCC-1701 wrote:

I must be weird, because before joining this board I never felt of Neelix as a pedophile. I always accepted that Kes belonged to a species which due to its short lifespan has an enormously fast way of learning things and growing up. Maybe that's a quite fantastic notion. But so are warp speed and transporter technology.

Maybe I should have reflected about it more thoroughly. But then again, maybe you guys are overthinking it.

No, we are most definitely overthinking it, and therefore probably the weird ones.

I didn't really recognize it until it was pointed out to me, but now it's rather mind-blowing:

GodBen wrote:

I never got the sense that Neelix was a paedophile until I started rewatching the show, now I see it constantly when he is together with Kes. He has a very paternal relationship with her, always explaining things to her... it makes me want to grab my pitchfork and prepare my angry mob chants.

Yeah, that's how I felt too. At the very least, it was an unhealthy relationship where he felt a need to have her need him, and was very insecure and felt threatened by everyone.

neogothboy74 · March 30 2009, 02:56 PM

I don't think the Kes / Neelix relationship (which I thought rather sweet in 'Caretaker') was developed very well. I mean...they really didn't seem to know what do with Kes at all, which is a shame. I remember that Kes & Neelix even broke up between episodes; like the writers felt that it was so unimportant that they didn't need to show it... So looking back I find it hard to take a debate on their relationship seriously. But if I had to say, I don't think of it as a pedophile kind of thing. Her race developes at a different pace than we're used to is all. But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

And I loved Phlox.

M · March 30 2009, 04:10 PM

neogothboy74 wrote:

But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's why I like Neelix so much. I can relate to the problems he had in his relationship to Kes. I tend to be just as jealous and immature as him when in a relationship.

neogothboy74 · March 30 2009, 04:30 PM

NCC-1701 wrote:

neogothboy74 wrote:

But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's why I like Neelix so much. I can relate to the problems he had in his relationship to Kes. I tend to be just as jealous and immature as him when in a relationship.

Well...my advice is to learn from Neelix's mistakes, rather than commiserating with him over them. But that's just me.

Praetor · March 30 2009, 05:38 PM

NCC-1701 wrote:

neogothboy74 wrote:

But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's why I like Neelix so much. I can relate to the problems he had in his relationship to Kes. I tend to be just as jealous and immature as him when in a relationship.

You know, you may be onto something there...

I should clarify: I do like the idea of Neelix. I don't hate Neelix, or even most of his screentime - I can think of several episodes that I truly liked him in - 'Rise' is the first that comes to mind. 'Jetrel' is another. 'The relationship' was mostly what was creepy and 'tainted' him for me, and I think they fumbled his character a bit. (Also, I do like to root for the underdog.)

Phlox, however, never really impressed me in any way. Woo. Alien SuperDoc. Yay.

TheGodBen · March 30 2009, 05:57 PM

NCC-1701 wrote:

neogothboy74 wrote:

But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's why I like Neelix so much. I can relate to the problems he had in his relationship to Kes. I tend to be just as jealous and immature as him when in a relationship.

Maybe that's why I dislike him so much, I hate to see a reflection of myself as the horribly annoying and immature person I am.

exodus · March 30 2009, 09:45 PM

GodBen wrote:

NCC-1701 wrote:

neogothboy74 wrote:

But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it.

Thinking about it now, I guess that's why I like Neelix so much. I can relate to the problems he had in his relationship to Kes. I tend to be just as jealous and immature as him when in a relationship.

Maybe that's why I dislike him so much, I hate to see a reflection of myself as the horribly annoying and immature person I am.

I see that as one of the points behind Neelix.
The other is he grew up kinda raising himself, so what proper social skills did he have?

Phlox has no such excuse for being a weirdo, other than just being alien & strange. However, most if the ENT. crew were socially retards anyway.

JustKate · March 31 2009, 04:18 PM

Praetor wrote:

NCC-1701 wrote:

I must be weird, because before joining this board I never felt of Neelix as a pedophile. I always accepted that Kes belonged to a species which due to its short lifespan has an enormously fast way of learning things and growing up. Maybe that's a quite fantastic notion. But so are warp speed and transporter technology.

Maybe I should have reflected about it more thoroughly. But then again, maybe you guys are overthinking it.

No, we are most definitely overthinking it, and therefore probably the weird ones.

I didn't really recognize it until it was pointed out to me, but now it's rather mind-blowing:

GodBen wrote:

I never got the sense that Neelix was a paedophile until I started rewatching the show, now I see it constantly when he is together with Kes. He has a very paternal relationship with her, always explaining things to her... it makes me want to grab my pitchfork and prepare my angry mob chants.

Yeah, that's how I felt too. At the very least, it was an unhealthy relationship where he felt a need to have her need him, and was very insecure and felt threatened by everyone.

I never at the time thought of him as a pedophile, and I really don't even in retrospect. I think. The problem is that I don't know how I really think of him. All I can say is that as I watched those episodes for the first time, my thoughts re. a real relationship with Kes could be summarized pretty well by this: "Euw euw euw euw euw!" (if you can call that a "thought"). Plus, I was always really glad on some not-too-deep level that Neelix always, aside from that jealous streak, acted more like a big brother than a boyfriend/lover/romantic partner. I'm still not sure why, actually, but I'm glad I never really had to confront it. Because of all the euw-ing it would have involved.

His jealous scenes were almost the only time his feelings seemed real, so in a way they were good, but I have to agree with those who found them kind of creepy. They were that.

But I didn't hate Neelix - he was featured in some pretty good episodes. Most of the time he was for me an irritant, though.

davidant32 · March 31 2009, 05:02 PM

neelix. phlox was tolerable cuz he was necessary. neelix, not so much

why isn't this a poll?

Praetor · March 31 2009, 09:41 PM

JustKate wrote:

I never at the time thought of him as a pedophile, and I really don't even in retrospect. I think. The problem is that I don't know how I really think of him. All I can say is that as I watched those episodes for the first time, my thoughts re. a real relationship with Kes could be summarized pretty well by this: "Euw euw euw euw euw!" (if you can call that a "thought"). Plus, I was always really glad on some not-too-deep level that Neelix always, aside from that jealous streak, acted more like a big brother than a boyfriend/lover/romantic partner. I'm still not sure why, actually, but I'm glad I never really had to confront it. Because of all the euw-ing it would have involved.

Maybe that's what it was, combined with the age difference, that did it for me. I can't fully explain it. I wanted to like him.

His jealous scenes were almost the only time his feelings seemed real, so in a way they were good, but I have to agree with those who found them kind of creepy. They were that.

But I didn't hate Neelix - he was featured in some pretty good episodes. Most of the time he was for me an irritant, though.

Yep.

davidant32 · March 31 2009, 10:45 PM

I liked Neelix when he blew up on Tuvok for being condescending in "Rise." He actually helped resolve something non-emotional in that episode, too with his orbital tether experience. i also liked his character in "Jetrel," -- he seemed much more serious

neogothboy74 · April 1 2009, 01:09 AM

davidant32 wrote:

i also liked his character in "Jetrel," -- he seemed much more serious

I loved him in "Jetrel". But I loved a lot of the characters in Season 1.

kissthestar · April 1 2009, 11:34 PM

Phlox sometimes strikes me as smug. Neelix occasionally seems impossibly naive. I don't hate either of them, but I don't watch their respective shows because of them.

March 30 2009, 01:30 AM	#46
M Vice Admiral	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? I must be weird, because before joining this board I never felt of Neelix as a pedophile. I always accepted that Kes belonged to a species which due to its short lifespan has an enormously fast way of learning things and growing up. Maybe that's a quite fantastic notion. But so are warp speed and transporter technology. Maybe I should have reflected about it more thoroughly. But then again, maybe you guys are overthinking it. __________________ Bashir: »Out of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?« Garak: »My dear doctor, they're all true.« Bashir: »Even the lies?« Garak: »Especially the lies.«

March 30 2009, 02:37 AM	#47
TheGodBen Rear Admiral Location: Ireland	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? I never got the sense that Neelix was a paedophile until I started rewatching the show, now I see it constantly when he is together with Kes. He has a very paternal relationship with her, always explaining things to her... it makes me want to grab my pitchfork and prepare my angry mob chants. __________________ *...so many different suns...*

March 30 2009, 02:56 PM	#49
neogothboy74 Commander Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? I don't think the Kes / Neelix relationship (which I thought rather sweet in 'Caretaker') was developed very well. I mean...they really didn't seem to know what do with Kes at all, which is a shame. I remember that Kes & Neelix even broke up between episodes; like the writers felt that it was so unimportant that they didn't need to show it... So looking back I find it hard to take a debate on their relationship seriously. But if I had to say, I don't think of it as a pedophile kind of thing. Her race developes at a different pace than we're used to is all. But the relationship definitely seemed unhealthy, but it wasn't the age of the characters and it wasn't because Kes wasn't mature enough, but the other way around - it was because Neelix didn't seem adult enough to handle it. And I loved Phlox.

March 31 2009, 05:02 PM	#56
davidant32 Commodore	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? neelix. phlox was tolerable cuz he was necessary. neelix, not so much why isn't this a poll? __________________ Space, time, and thought are not the separate things they appear to be.

March 31 2009, 10:45 PM	#58
davidant32 Commodore	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? I liked Neelix when he blew up on Tuvok for being condescending in "Rise." He actually helped resolve something non-emotional in that episode, too with his orbital tether experience. i also liked his character in "Jetrel," -- he seemed much more serious __________________ Space, time, and thought are not the separate things they appear to be.

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April 1 2009, 11:34 PM	#60
kissthestar Captain	Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox? Phlox sometimes strikes me as smug. Neelix occasionally seems impossibly naive. I don't hate either of them, but I don't watch their respective shows because of them.