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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 216 82.44%
Above Average 34 12.98%
Average 8 3.05%
Below Average 2 0.76%
Poor 2 0.76%
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old February 1 2009, 06:26 PM   #181
MyCylon
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Excellent. I'm still digesting this one. Things are just totally going to hell.

It's a bad enough thought to be locked up aboard those ships for so long. But imagining that there's this sort of an uprising and you're on one of those ships, that's really creepy. In that sense I thought the scenes of Kara and Lee moving through Galactica were very effective: They all look like your allies! But how to know who is and who isn't?

I think they've picked a very interesting path for Gaeta here. And it's very much in line with his attitude towards Cylons ever since the occupation. I do wonder, however, if he knows that Zarek was one of the ones who nearly got him killed as a traitor.

I also really liked Roslin using Baltar's wireless. It was interesting to see her in much the same pose as Baltar so many times before, speaking to the fleet.

And Adama and Tigh, wow. I thought it was really cool that they managed to free themselves. And, really, I SO feel for poor Tigh. He keeps getting these anti-Cylon sentiments from others (Lee, in this case), but he's really the least deserving. He's been so loyal and continues to be. It would be incredibly guttsy on the part of the show if one of them actually didn't walk out of that airlock alive. Though I don't think (and hope!) that's going to happen. Or if then maybe Tigh (this is no spoiler, just pure speculation on my part).

I actually think this one upped the previous episode a notch for me.

Oh, and I hate them for this cliffhanger .
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Old February 1 2009, 07:59 PM   #182
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

I also just caught the episode and thought it was really good. I agree they've also really made a bold move in going down this path.

The sickest scene was when Adama told the guard to not fraking touch him. Hahahaha, dammmmmm!
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Old February 1 2009, 08:01 PM   #183
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Well, excellent, for the many reasons already stated (my #1: Starbuck Starbuck Starbuck).

There's one thing I'm confused about though: was that last stand really necessary? The Raptor looks long gone before the mutineers start opening the blast doors (or whatever they're called... doors, possibly). I understand Adama not wanting to leave his ship but why not going with Tyrol, Lee and Starbuck to regroup, free the prisoners and retake the ship? I'm missing something for sure...
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Old February 1 2009, 08:30 PM   #184
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

This is the first episode of Season 4.5 that I can give an Excellent to; and the first that I felt was worth watching front to back. Had they done this type of story back in the second season (remember they started to - when Zarek helped the President escape the Galactica when Adama had locked her and Lee up - but QUICKLY dropped and restored the status quo); I probably would like the whose series a lot more than I do today.

For once eneryone was in character, the character motivations and actions were spot on consistent; and there was good drame; and not all this constant 'hand-wringing' type 'drame of the previous 4.5 episodes.

Kooks like the DO have a decent writer on staff still.
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Old February 1 2009, 09:35 PM   #185
Teek
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Hardin wrote: View Post
I understand Adama not wanting to leave his ship but why not going with Tyrol, Lee and Starbuck to regroup, free the prisoners and retake the ship? I'm missing something for sure...
You'll notice that the panel that Tyrol and company used was outside the hatch. They left Adama and Tigh before the Raptor was away. It goes:

1. Tyrol, Kara and Lee leave through corridor hatch. Outer bulkhead door to room is then closed.
2. Raptor finishes prep and leaves.
3. Kelly and other arrives and begin cutting through bulkhead door.

By the time the Raptor leaves, there's no where for Tigh and Adama to go. The panel that Tyrol used was outside in the corridor. If they had left when Tyrol did, they would have left the Raptor people to possibly fend for themselves. As it was the Raptor made it away in time, and Adama and Tigh didn't need to protect them. Nothing left to do then except for take out some sons a bitches with them.
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Old February 1 2009, 09:47 PM   #186
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

i am not the only one who thinks that the they have better deal than most, why aren't they taking it? even if they don't have all options, it is not better to wait until Cylon technolgies are installed until turning on leadership?
The Colonials have suffered far too much emotional trauma for anyone to expect them to behave rationally. In the first place, they definitely need to see the guilty among the Cylons punished - until that happens, no rationality can return to their thinking, and their own leadership cannot claim true legitimacy.

Beyond the need to see justice done in proportion to the genocide they have suffered, they have the added problem that the hope of salvation, which they have been clinging to like a life raft and has allowed them to ignore the need for justice, has now been snatched away.

Until now, a combination of crisis conditions and the glimmering hope of Earth have kept the mob from ripping Adama and Roslin apart for their failure to seek justice, but now that's gone. The need for justice trumps any hope that Cylon tech might provide, and since the hope of Earth has vanished, the very idea of having patience for an even fainter glimmer of hope probably seems like a comical exercise in futility. Patience for "hope" is at an end.

Gaeta and the rest of the mutineers probably know they're dead - the whole fleet is dead, regardless of what happens - but before they die, they want to see some kind of justice done and since there is no rational system in place for accomplishing that, it's going to be mob justice which punishes the innocent like Anders along with the guilty.

The only strategy left to Roslin and Adama at this point is to take advantage of the fact that the fleet has a sketchy or perhaps nonexistent understanding of Cylon social structure. The fact that all of the seven Cylon models are (or used to be) effectively a single mind means that regardless of how many of them exist, they are all guilty of genocide in equal proportion, and all should be given the death penalty for their crime.

But Roslin and Adama could probably get away with the pretense that the Cylons had individual personas even when they committed genocide, and the Six, Boomer, et al, who are rebelling now were rebels back then, too. And then heap all the blame on the Cylons that they are at war with anyway. That will save the necks of the Cylons in the fleet, regardless whether they are really guilty or not. Because if Roslin and Adama aren't willing to airlock those Cylons, they better convince everyone that they are pure as driven snow.

If the fleet could be convinced that there are good Cylons and bad Cylons, and always have been, then Roslin and Adama could salvage the situation. But there definitely needs to be some big-ass retribution against the bad Cylons in the offing, and even then, it might be too late for anything but total eradication of Cylons.

I can't say I ever really understood the rationale behind teaming up with the Cylons to begin with, before they found Earth. I guess the Cylons had some vital knowledge? I've forgotten now. If the Cylons weren't vital to the process, wow, that was a big mistake.
I know, the Cylons committed genocide against the human race etc. But I'd interpret Adama's point of view as: "Frak this constant killing. Frak the Cylon holocaust. I don't care anymore. Vengeance aside it does not serve any other purpose than to reduce the number of living humans even further.
That might be Adama's attitude, but unless the fleet shares that attitude - and clearly the mutiny proves that they don't - then he needs to either convince the fleet of his point of view (which strikes me as an impossibility) or ignore his own opinions on the topic.

But really, Adama is a military leader and his opinions about politics aren't germane to his job description. That's Roslin's role as the civilian leader - she should have realized that if the whole thing with Earth didn't pan out, the suppressed need for justice, retribution, whatever you want to call it, would come roaring back with a vengeance. Really, this whole situation is a result of Roslin being too wrapped up in her rarefied little world of prophecy - and being distracted by illness - and wow, Lee should have done something to avert this catastrophe. Everyone was so blinded by desperation and hope that they didn't see this coming.
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Old February 1 2009, 09:51 PM   #187
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Rii wrote: View Post
Adama should've left the decision to install the drives in the hands of the captains and crew of each ship as the Quorum voted, with the understanding that Galactica would be accepting the upgraded drives and any ships which didn't have them would of necessity be left behind to fend for themselves.
That is exactly what should have happened. Keep up with us, or get left behind!

---------------
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Old February 1 2009, 09:55 PM   #188
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

scotthm wrote: View Post
Rii wrote: View Post
Adama should've left the decision to install the drives in the hands of the captains and crew of each ship as the Quorum voted, with the understanding that Galactica would be accepting the upgraded drives and any ships which didn't have them would of necessity be left behind to fend for themselves.
That is exactly what should have happened. Keep up with us, or get left behind!

---------------
But if most of the fleet refused, the human population would have dropped catastrophically, perhaps below survival levels. They do need some level of diversity among DNA.

And the mutiny among the military shows that the military would not be willing to abandon civilians to their fate. That's the whole point, they feel that their leadership isn't defending the whole population now, and safeguarding the future of the entire human race, which is embodied in the civilian vessels. If Adama had threatened to leave most ships behind, the mutiny would have happened because of that.

And Starbuck's coming to Lee's rescue was beyond awesome
"Let him go"
"Frak you"
*Starbuck shoots him*
"I can do this all day, who's next? Racetrack? Connor?"


It boggles my mind that there are people who don't think Starbuck is a fan-FRAKKING-tastic character. Argh, when this is over, I'm gonna miss her most of all.

Before the end, there does need to be some final resolution of the rift between her and hubby, tho.
And Adama and Tigh, wow. I thought it was really cool that they managed to free themselves. And, really, I SO feel for poor Tigh. He keeps getting these anti-Cylon sentiments from others (Lee, in this case), but he's really the least deserving. He's been so loyal and continues to be. It would be incredibly guttsy on the part of the show if one of them actually didn't walk out of that airlock alive. Though I don't think (and hope!) that's going to happen. Or if then maybe Tigh (this is no spoiler, just pure speculation on my part).
I'm totally unspoilerfied, but I think Tigh jumps on that grenade and saves Adama's life. Then Tigh gets reincarnated somewheres...

And Anders is the least deserving of getting punched around. Tigh murdered his own wife; Tyrol abandoned his son just because the kid wasn't "really" his; but I can't think of any time when Anders hasn't been pretty damn near perfect in his ethics, which considering the situation, is amazing. He even refused to leave his cheatin' whore of a wife! What a guy.

Had they done this type of story back in the second season (remember they started to - when Zarek helped the President escape the Galactica when Adama had locked her and Lee up - but QUICKLY dropped and restored the status quo); I probably would like the whose series a lot more than I do today.
This is exactly what I wanted to see back then, and was frustrated not to have gotten, but it's more effective now, because Starbuck is more frakked up, the situation is more desperate (people who think they're dead anyway will do anything), and we have more Cylons in the mix, including some entirely blameless ones.
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Old February 1 2009, 10:17 PM   #189
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

scotthm wrote: View Post
Rii wrote: View Post
Adama should've left the decision to install the drives in the hands of the captains and crew of each ship as the Quorum voted, with the understanding that Galactica would be accepting the upgraded drives and any ships which didn't have them would of necessity be left behind to fend for themselves.
That is exactly what should have happened. Keep up with us, or get left behind!

---------------

Absolutely not. Good, bad, elected or selected, Adama and Roslyn have been 'made' responsible for what's left of the human race. It's their responsibiltiy to make the hard decisions even if 'the population' doesn't agree with it.

That's why there's an old adage that says 'it's lonely at the top'. Being up there isn't all fun and games. Sometimes you have to make decisions you know are going to be unpopular - but if you are a leader worth your salt, you will make those decisions, not allow polls to tell you what kinds of decisions to make.
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Old February 1 2009, 10:23 PM   #190
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Anyone else think it was really cool to have Adama, Roslin, Baltar, Starbuck, Lee, Tigh & Tyrol all working together at the end. Just thought that was a nice touch

Oh, and now I really want Gatea to lose the rest of his limbs. At the very least Adama should blow off his other leg in revenge
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Old February 1 2009, 10:25 PM   #191
chrisspringob
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

I'm probably in the extreme minority on this, but I actually think that "The Oath" would have made an awesome series finale. (I guess people would have probably compared it to the ambiguous ending of The Sopranos.)

Only difference I would have made if this was the finale is, have Cavil's Cylons jump in towards the end, and start attacking the fleet, but Gaeta's mutineers turn out to be worthless in responding to a Cylon attack, so they're all losing badly, and the implication is that they're all going to die because of the mutiny. Then cut away to Adama and Tigh fending off Gaeta's goons, and the grenade gets thrown into the storage bay with Adama and Tigh, and it's about to go off, and then........fade to black. Cue credits. The series is over.

I actually would have kind of loved that, in its own way. "The Oath" would have gone down as a legendary hour of SF TV. But then, I'm weird that way. I'm someone who actually thinks that "Bad Timing" is a better finale for Farscape than "Peacekeeper Wars".
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Old February 1 2009, 11:03 PM   #192
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Teek wrote: View Post
Hardin wrote: View Post
I understand Adama not wanting to leave his ship but why not going with Tyrol, Lee and Starbuck to regroup, free the prisoners and retake the ship? I'm missing something for sure...
You'll notice that the panel that Tyrol and company used was outside the hatch. They left Adama and Tigh before the Raptor was away. It goes:

1. Tyrol, Kara and Lee leave through corridor hatch. Outer bulkhead door to room is then closed.
2. Raptor finishes prep and leaves.
3. Kelly and other arrives and begin cutting through bulkhead door.

By the time the Raptor leaves, there's no where for Tigh and Adama to go. The panel that Tyrol used was outside in the corridor. If they had left when Tyrol did, they would have left the Raptor people to possibly fend for themselves. As it was the Raptor made it away in time, and Adama and Tigh didn't need to protect them. Nothing left to do then except for take out some sons a bitches with them.
aah, that's it, I had missed the panel thing entirely. Thank you, now it all adds up.
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Old February 1 2009, 11:38 PM   #193
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
scotthm wrote: View Post
Rii wrote: View Post
Adama should've left the decision to install the drives in the hands of the captains and crew of each ship as the Quorum voted, with the understanding that Galactica would be accepting the upgraded drives and any ships which didn't have them would of necessity be left behind to fend for themselves.
That is exactly what should have happened. Keep up with us, or get left behind!

---------------
But if most of the fleet refused, the human population would have dropped catastrophically, perhaps below survival levels. They do need some level of diversity among DNA.

And the mutiny among the military shows that the military would not be willing to abandon civilians to their fate. That's the whole point, they feel that their leadership isn't defending the whole population now, and safeguarding the future of the entire human race, which is embodied in the civilian vessels. If Adama had threatened to leave most ships behind, the mutiny would have happened because of that.
Right, mostly I would've liked to have seen a line of dialogue or two having Adama (or Lee) explain why it's a fleet-wide issue: because the progress of the fleet is tied to that of the slowest ship, the upgraded drives are useless unless all ships have them.
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Old February 1 2009, 11:58 PM   #194
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Right, mostly I would've liked to have seen a line of dialogue or two having Adama (or Lee) explain why it's a fleet-wide issue: because the progress of the fleet is tied to that of the slowest ship, the upgraded drives are useless unless all ships have them.
Isn't that obvious? Their numbers are few enough that they can't afford to leave anyone behind. That violates the entire principle of dragging civilians along behind them all this time. The Galactica could have just left everyone years ago and done far better on her own, but that would defeat the purpose of their survival. Either they stick together or the human race dies. Maybe they could afford to lose a few ships, but it sounded like they were losing far more than a few.

Also, there's the issue of maintaining order - if Adama and Roslin aren't in charge, who the frak is, and what are the consequences of that? It would be Zarek, and Adama and Roslin are understandably leery of him.

The issue here isn't really about the Cylon tech, it's a fight over who's in charge and who has the authority to be in charge, because the people of the fleet believe they have the best chance of survival with them. Is it Roslin + Adama and their scary alliance with Cylons, whose credibility has been pretty well destroyed because of how Earth turned out? Or the former (?) terrorist Zarek, who some people might be leery of because of his crimes, and to follow him means betraying Adama and Roslin, who after all have kept them alive this long?
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Old February 2 2009, 01:08 AM   #195
Marcus Porcius Cato
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Re: Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

scotthm wrote: View Post
Rii wrote: View Post
Adama should've left the decision to install the drives in the hands of the captains and crew of each ship as the Quorum voted, with the understanding that Galactica would be accepting the upgraded drives and any ships which didn't have them would of necessity be left behind to fend for themselves.
That is exactly what should have happened. Keep up with us, or get left behind!

---------------
Then it would not have been a mutiny, it would have been bloodbath and civil war.
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