A Singular Destiny review thread (possible spoilers)

[JD]

Why would the Federation need to share cloaking tech with the Imerpials? They're Romulans, with Romulans ships, which would mean that they already have cloaking tech which is most likely more advanced than the Feds anything the Feds have.

[Christopher]

Steve Mollmann wrote:

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Which episode established a previous Treaty of Algeron?

I misremembered. Now that I think about it, what really happened was, TNG initially mentioned the Treaty of Algeron in "The Defector" without specifying when it was signed, and the original Chronology assumed it was the treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War in 2160 or so. Then "The Pegasus" came along and clarified that it was actually signed in 2311 and barred the use of cloaking devices (since the Chrono's conjectures were not binding on the shows). So I kind of got it backwards and in the wrong medium.

[Steve Mollmann]

Ah. If I remember right, "The Defector" establishes that Algeron is being violated by entering the Zone, so thinking it was the 2160 treaty was a reasonable assumption.

[Rat Boy]

There is one thing I think precludes a full-on armed conflict between the Typhon Pact and the nations allied through the Khitomer Accords: a lack of a strategic advantage. The Pact nations now all have cloaking devices (lets assume for the sake of argument that they're on par with the one aboard the Scimitar) and presumably have access to thalaron weapons. The Federation and company have transphasic torpedoes (assuming of course they pack the same punch against other ships as they do against the Borg) and quantum slipstream drives. If either side makes an aggressive move, the other has an effective counter. If a Pact nation attacks an Accord world, then the Accord could have a small fleet use QSDs to pop into Pact territory, completely bypass their border defenses, and blow up every shipyard and base in sight with only a few shots. There's somewhat of a parallel to the M.A.D. doctrine; one wrong move and everybody's going to get hurt.

[Christopher]

^I think that focusing on the military aspects of the rise of the Typhon Pact is missing the point. War is not the only kind of international conflict or competition.

[Rat Boy]

Christopher wrote:

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^I think that focusing on the military aspects of the rise of the Typhon Pact is missing the point. War is not the only kind of international conflict or competition.

It's one aspect and since the discussions seem to meander around the military aspects of the Typhon Pact (which is understandable, since one of their first if unsanctioned actions was the invasion of Krios and H'Atoria), I thought I should point out the unfeasibility of a Dominion War-type of armed conflict. And you're right; it's not the only way that the Typhon Pact can compete with the Accord nations. After all, the Cold War didn't end with a bang, though there were certainly armed conflicts between parties allied to one group or the other. And even though the Pact as a whole doesn't seek a military solution, it doesn't preclude some members from going down that road on a limited scale.

[MNM]

Paris wrote:

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I have no idea what the difference is. If the RSE are aligned with the Typhon Pact, and we know that the Pact's agenda seems to be in contrast with the Federation/Klingon Alliance and their new allies that have joined the Khitomer Accords (the IRS included), then the treaties shold be in question.

Didnt the book only say that certain interstellar powers had been invited to a summit to discuss the expansion of the Khitomer Accords to include them? And if I remeber correctly, the book said that among them only the Ferengi had even formally agreed to attend at that point. (Donatra's Romulans may have agreed too, but I would have to go find the book and check up for that).

Personally I would be surprised to see, beyond maybe the IRS, any of them actually join the accords and Alliance.

[captcalhoun]

it was indeed an invitation to discuss an expanded alliance. Donatra and Rom had agreed to attend.

I'd expect the IRS to join. Donatra'd join largely to piss off Tal'aura and also to make sure she had allies if the TyPac invaded.

The Ferengi might not. Rom might decide it made more sense to sit it out and be neutral, Nan could even persuade him to stay neutral to act as a go-between.

i'd be more inclined to see the Cardies and the Talarians joining, if only to guarentee aid in rebuilding their devastated fleets.

[JD]

I can't remember, do we know what the new Cardassian Castellan thinks of the Federation?

[Vestboy]

Christopher wrote:

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^I think that focusing on the military aspects of the rise of the Typhon Pact is missing the point. War is not the only kind of international conflict or competition.

True. For me, the unified currency of the Typhon Pact is an aspect I find particularly intriguing. It's not just a mutual defense agreement-- there is a real sense of uniting occurring.

[Kestrel]

First post! I've been lurking since the old SlipStreamBBS went dark, and have often thought about registering or maybe contributing, but recent TrekLit has convinced me to venture out a little bit anyway.

So, I bought and read the Destiny Trilogy and A Singular Destiny all within the last month or so, absolutely devoured them. I think the unified direction of TrekLit, inaugurated (I think) by the success of the DS9 Relaunch, is wonderful. I haven't read any of the other TNG post-NEM or ATT... books, nor any of the Titan or COE books, or AotF - nor do I think I'll have time to any time soon - but this didn't stop me from loving these books. The most important details I picked up from within the books themselves and lurking here anyway. Bear with me, I don't have the book in front of me, so I'll probly lose some names.

First thing I'd like to comment on - I love Captain Dax and the Aventine crew. I guess it helps that DS9 is my favorite series, and Dax is probably one of my favorites, if not my favorite, character. If there's one thing I'd really like to see grow out of these books (beyond the sense of a grand unified playground for further stories), it's good enough sales and reviews to give Aventine either its' own series or at the very least feature heavily in books going forward. More Aventine!

I wasn't entirely sure about Sam Bowers characterization in ASD, seems a bit more abrasive than I remember him being from the DS9R books (though I'm only up to Ferenginar/Dominion), but it certainly works in balance, and especially if I recall we're seeing him with a particular focus of bulldogging as the First Officer. Lonnoc Kedair continues to be an excellent characters created from the Destiny Trilogy, and her interaction with the Janus Mining Corp. woman was a great scene.

That said, absolutely my favorite scene in the book was Sonek Pran's jam session and the lead-up to it. Ezri realizing she still has work to do in being connected with her crew, Erin Constantino's holding it together and then losing it, Pran's beautifully sad song about the devastation. Music does a lot for me, and even if I couldn't actually hear it, thinking about people remembering the devastation in song really touched me.

Speaking of Pran, I really enjoyed reading about him! I'm not particularly familiar with Arlo Guthrie, but Pran I thought was very nicely done, and I hope we see more of him. My only slight negative note about him was his strained relationship with his son did seem a bit convenient and I didn't really connect with that drama, but it's only a slight complaint. I especially liked that he was shown to not be perfect, with his verbal beatdown by Dax and the officers he was traveling with for getting too caught up in being relevant again. Humanized him, I think.

Not having read AotF, ASD (and Destiny, of course) were my introductions to the Federation West Wing, but I quite enjoyed all those scenes.

Speaking of the larger political situation, I enjoy the state of the universe with one quibble - the Imperial Romulan State. Blah, I say. Why do we need "good Romulans" and "bad Romulans?" I quite like the Romulans, and I wish they got more (good) exploration (looking at you, NEM ), but I don't care for that bit. I know, I know, read Titan, maybe that'll help. Maybe not. I also just find it aesthetically bland. The Romulan Star Empire, run by the Praetor and Imperial Senate, is pleasing. The Imperial Romulan State, ruled by an Empress? Blah. And of course the IRS () are unfortunately the good guys. IMO, I think the Typhon Pact storyline should see the two states merging back into one, incorporating some of Donatra's reforms but maybe not all of them.

The Kinshaya were great, love the little griffins, and I'm sure we'll get to see some more action from them vs. the Klingons. For what little pagecount they got, they certainly made an impression on me. Ambassador Tezrene needs to be knocked down a few pegs, though she did make a great point about the nature of the Typhon Pact - the shared currency especially makes me wonder if they might not be around longer term than we might think?

Ok, I think that's long enough for my first post, eh? Thanks KRAD for a fantastic book (and David Mack since this is sorta-Destiny-ish too)!

[KRAD]

Kestrel wrote:

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First post! I've been lurking since the old SlipStreamBBS went dark, and have often thought about registering or maybe contributing, but recent TrekLit has convinced me to venture out a little bit anyway.

Glad I got to be your first.

Er...

I think the unified direction of TrekLit, inaugurated (I think) by the success of the DS9 Relaunch, is wonderful.

Strictly speaking, it started in 1996 with the Invasion! crossover and was expanded in 1997 with the debut of New Frontier. It became something of an editorial direction in 2001, as Dave Galanter and Greg Brodeur were specifically asked to put a reference to Worf being on taD (from my novel Diplomatic Implausibility, released the previous month) in Maximum Warp, and then we had the post-finale DS9 fiction and so on.

I wasn't entirely sure about Sam Bowers characterization in ASD, seems a bit more abrasive than I remember him being from the DS9R books (though I'm only up to Ferenginar/Dominion), but it certainly works in balance, and especially if I recall we're seeing him with a particular focus of bulldogging as the First Officer.

Well, that and the post-traumatic stress of the events of Destiny....

Lonnoc Kedair continues to be an excellent characters created from the Destiny Trilogy, and her interaction with the Janus Mining Corp. woman was a great scene.

Hee! Thanks! I think Kedair was my favorite Aventine character from Destiny, and I wanted to make sure she got her moment in the sun in ASD.

That said, absolutely my favorite scene in the book was Sonek Pran's jam session and the lead-up to it. Ezri realizing she still has work to do in being connected with her crew, Erin Constantino's holding it together and then losing it, Pran's beautifully sad song about the devastation. Music does a lot for me, and even if I couldn't actually hear it, thinking about people remembering the devastation in song really touched me.

Thanks. "Estadio Chile" is a real song, and the story Sonek tells about how it was written is completely true. (In fact, several real songs were sprinkled in among the fictional ones. Check out my annotations for ASD for specifics.)

And music was a very important theme of the entire book, from Sonek's jam sessions to the A.C. Walden Medicine Show's good-will tour to the Fifth Fleet singing the Warrior's Anthem.

Speaking of Pran, I really enjoyed reading about him!

Thanks so much!

My only slight negative note about him was his strained relationship with his son did seem a bit convenient and I didn't really connect with that drama, but it's only a slight complaint. I especially liked that he was shown to not be perfect, with his verbal beatdown by Dax and the officers he was traveling with for getting too caught up in being relevant again. Humanized him, I think.

That was the idea. I wanted the character to have flaws, plus I enjoyed the irony of a great communicator being unable to talk to his own son.

Speaking of the larger political situation, I enjoy the state of the universe with one quibble - the Imperial Romulan State. Blah, I say.

That was my idea, executed in Articles of the Federation, and I thought it was a logical outgrowth of the chaos Shinzon left in his wake in Nemesis. Sorry it doesn't work for you.

The Kinshaya were great, love the little griffins, and I'm sure we'll get to see some more action from them vs. the Klingons. For what little pagecount they got, they certainly made an impression on me.

Thanks! I wanted to make an effort to make the Kinshaya something we hadn't seen much of in Trek, and also to make sure they were tenacious enough to be worthy foes of the Klingons.

Thanks KRAD for a fantastic book (and David Mack since this is sorta-Destiny-ish too)!

Thanks for the thoughtful review!

[Kestrel]

KRAD wrote:

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Glad I got to be your first.

Er...

Heh. I'm kinda a long-lost poster, I was a PsiPhi regular, oh, back when DS9's S7 was airing...

KRAD wrote:

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Strictly speaking, it started in 1996 with the Invasion! crossover and was expanded in 1997 with the debut of New Frontier. It became something of an editorial direction in 2001, as Dave Galanter and Greg Brodeur were specifically asked to put a reference to Worf being on taD (from my novel Diplomatic Implausibility, released the previous month) in Maximum Warp, and then we had the post-finale DS9 fiction and so on.

Oooh, I knew there was another reason I really liked Invasion!

KRAD wrote:

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Well, that and the post-traumatic stress of the events of Destiny....

Good point, didn't think of that...

KRAD wrote:

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Thanks. "Estadio Chile" is a real song, and the story Sonek tells about how it was written is completely true. (In fact, several real songs were sprinkled in among the fictional ones. Check out my annotations for ASD for specifics.)

Ooh, thanks for the annotations, I'd seen the thread but not gone yet.

KRAD wrote:

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And music was a very important theme of the entire book, from Sonek's jam sessions to the A.C. Walden Medicine Show's good-will tour to the Fifth Fleet singing the Warrior's Anthem.

Yeah, that whole thread was one I really appreciated.

KRAD wrote:

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That was my idea, executed in Articles of the Federation, and I thought it was a logical outgrowth of the chaos Shinzon left in his wake in Nemesis. Sorry it doesn't work for you.

Well... it's mostly a personal preference thing; I mean, I certainly see how it turned out the way it did, and what I've seen has all been very well done. And I might feel better if the RSE were the "good" guys with Donatra and the IRS the "bad" guys with Tel'Aura, (or if the situation was even more complicated than "good Romulans" and "bad Romulans," unless I'm oversimplifying?) but I guess that makes it even more realistic, eh?

KRAD wrote:

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Thanks! I wanted to make an effort to make the Kinshaya something we hadn't seen much of in Trek, and also to make sure they were tenacious enough to be worthy foes of the Klingons.

Or should I say, ?

[Rowan Sjet]

Finally read the book this past week. A good coda for the Destiny Trilogy, and a great setup for "Cleaning up Mack's Mess".

I particularly like the introduction of the Typhon Pact. From what I'd read of them beforehand, I'd assumed a small collection of states that just fuck around with and be a general pain in the ass for the Federation while they're rebuilding, and not much more. But now, (and I know from reading the thread, I shouldn't really use the word ) they seem much more threatening. Looking at the Starcharts, they really do almost literally surround the Federation, or at least the coreworlds. Of course, the Typhon Pact may eventually grow into something good as a whole, but right now, there's a definite Cold War mentality to them. In any event, the makeup of "personalities" within the coalition should definitely make for some interesting reading going foward.

Also, a nitpick for ya KRAD! If explosive C is readily available everywhere, while explosive N is very expensive and difficult to get, why would you use explosive N and try to make it look like explosive C?

[foravalon]

Christopher wrote:

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^The simple fact is, cloaks wouldn't work on most Starfleet ships. The more power a ship puts out, the more powerful the cloak needs to be to conceal it, so there's a point of diminishing returns. Cloaks are only practical on ships that keep their power use to a strict minimum: stripped-down, no-frills warships. No holodecks, no science labs, no arboretums, not a single luxury. So a ship like the Enterprise or the Titan couldn't practically use a cloak anyway. If you ask me, that's the real reason the Federation agreed not to develop cloaking tech.

That's a nice theory, and I can understand it in principle but I'm not sure where anything like that can be derived from the canon. In the modern trek, Romulan Warbird are massive, some estimates putting them at twice the size of Galaxy class vessels, and they used effective cloaks on a regular basis. They were shown in at least one episode to carry holodeck tech as well. Or are you simply saying that Federation ships aren't designed around cloaks in the way that Romulan ships are, and that that's the primary reason the tech doesn't mesh well? If so then it's not too much of a stretch to believe that.

Trent Roman wrote:

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Unless one can devise a way to keep shields up and fire weapons while cloaked, I don't see the cloak as being particularly useful in combat--not at the speed at which weapons exchange takes place. It's use would be primarily one of mobility: getting your ships to location XY undetected, concealing your ship movements from the enemy, etc; all of which falls apart as soon as the enemy finds a new way to detect cloaked vessels.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

But I think we've already seen this, we had the less than practical, but still successful prototype Klingon BoP from TUC, and then century or so later the perfected Reman design on the Scimitar, and if the Countdown comic is any indication

it looks like Nero's vessel, the Narada will have no problem firing while cloaked either.

.

Plus, if the Fed vessels could be designed around practical cloaks, then I think the most singularly useful application for them wouldn't be related to combat anyway. I would imagine it would be most useful regarding exploration and the implementation of the Prime Directive. We've already seen the UFP use an Algeron loophole for this purpose with holographic duckblinds and the camo suits and holo-ship from Insurrection. We've also seen numerous occasions where SF vessels could have really really benefited from cloaking tech, or did benefit from borrowed cloaking tech, when in contact with non warp civilizations.

Christopher wrote:

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There were no cloaking devices used in the Earth-Romulan War.

I think that's a big assumption to make, we can infer from Balance of Power that the Feds weren't widely aware of the Roms even having the tech( by the 22nd century anyway). And while I agree that the producer's choices with ENT totally undermine the likely intentions of TOS, we do see the Roms effectively using the tech in "Enterprise" in more than one instance. Additionally cloaking tech does seem prevalent in several other cultures at that time and in that part of space as well. Word on the spacelanes may have been that Starfleet wasn't aware of their use in the war, but I think its naive to assume that no such devices were used in that war, unless the Roms deactivated all their minefields and ceased to see any benefit to stealth during wartime. Hey, it could happen.